I am trying to help the rogue with flanking -his build revolves around that- but my cleric is based on melee touch attacks with 8 strength. So...
If we are flanking an opponent and I have my mace drawn, does the rogue get the flanking bonus even if I hit with a melee touch attack? I'm assuming I will not get any kind of bonus because it is only for melee attacks not for melee touch attacks, but still it would be great if the rogue gets the bonus...
Thanks!
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The requirement is that you are threatening the target. So... Yes, in the situation you describe, the rogue gets the flanking bonus... and so do you.
Enjoy!
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The only difference between a melee attack and a melee touch attack is the type of AC you target (standard v.s. touch AC). In all other respects, it's like any other melee attack, meaning you would threaten, even with the spell cast and while holding the charge, so yes, you would receive the bonus with the touch attack.
You could also convey a flanking bonus to your rogue friend if you managed to threaten with a ranged weapon (such as with the Snap Shot feat), but you would not benefit from one.
Thank you!
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I've used a cleric with a longspear and 8 str. I Never made any attacks with the spear. I'd move into a nice flank position and do spellcasting, but since I was still threatening the target the others can still flank with me. I never need to attack to provide flanking.
I've used a cleric with a longspear and 8 str. I Never made any attacks with the spear. I'd move into a nice flank position and do spellcasting, but since I was still threatening the target the others can still flank with me. I never need to attack to provide flanking.
A longspear would have a range of 8 feet? But then dont I need a free hand for the touch attack, or other spells with a somatic component for that matter?
If your cleric is wearing a gauntlet or holding a charge than you would threaten too.
A gauntlet is considered an unarmed strike so I dont think it would...
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longspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.
Gauntlets allow you to threaten at close range. A Gauntlet is a weapon.
longspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.
Gauntlets allow you to threaten at close range. A Gauntlet is a weapon.
Thank you! Will keep it in mind for when I get spring attack, because right now I kinda have to be close up to deliver the touch spells. Could work great with that feat :)
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spring attack won't really work with touch spells. You'd have to cast the spell round 1 and hold the charge and then round 2 use spring attack to deliver the spell.
Not sure if you were aware of how that would work out for you.
Also, not sure if you have weapon finesse, but you should probably take it if you're dex is a 12 or better as it would give you dex to accuracy for your touch spells.
spring attack won't really work with touch spells. You'd have to cast the spell round 1 and hold the charge and then round 2 use spring attack to deliver the spell.
Not sure if you were aware of how that would work out for you.
Also, not sure if you have weapon finesse, but you should probably take it if you're dex is a 12 or better as it would give you dex to accuracy for your touch spells.
Why not? I can cast and hold the charge, move, then touch in one round. Whith spring attack cant I cast, move in, touch, move out? Confused a bit now.
I do have weapon finesse and my dex is 18 btw ...
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Why not? I can cast and hold the charge, move, then touch in one round. Whith spring attack cant I cast, move in, touch, move out?spring attack won't really work with touch spells. You'd have to cast the spell round 1 and hold the charge and then round 2 use spring attack to deliver the spell.
Not sure if you were aware of how that would work out for you.
Also, not sure if you have weapon finesse, but you should probably take it if you're dex is a 12 or better as it would give you dex to accuracy for your touch spells.
Spring Attack is its own special full round action, just like Charge is. You can't Charge and cast a touch spell and deliver it onto an enemy in place of the attack being made.
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Spring attack is a full round action.
Casting the spell is a standard action.
You don't have enough actions in a round.
Since you were planning on taking it it was obvious that you didn't understand how the rules worked. Because with spring attack you need to use it like I said, taking 2 rounds to get off 1 spell.
What you can do from level 1 is cast the spell as a standard, move to someone, and then deliver the spell as a free action. But then you're standing next to the enemy.
The more likely option would be to cast defensively in combat and then touch people. Or not use many touch spells.
Spring attack is a full round action.
Casting the spell is a standard action.
You don't have enough actions in a round.
Since you were planning on taking it it was obvious that you didn't understand how the rules worked. Because with spring attack you need to use it like I said, taking 2 rounds to get off 1 spell.What you can do from level 1 is cast the spell as a standard, move to someone, and then deliver the spell as a free action. But then you're standing next to the enemy.
The more likely option would be to cast defensively in combat and then touch people. Or not use many touch spells.
I'll look into it ... it was suggested in tark book of clerical optimization for the bad touch cleric... and I also found another post on the forums where the guy was using it. I cant imagine either expected 2 rounds for a spell.
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I'll look into it ... it was suggested in tark book of clerical optimization for the bad touch cleric... and I also found another post on the forums where the guy was using it. I cant imagine either expected 2 rounds for a spell.Spring attack is a full round action.
Casting the spell is a standard action.
You don't have enough actions in a round.
Since you were planning on taking it it was obvious that you didn't understand how the rules worked. Because with spring attack you need to use it like I said, taking 2 rounds to get off 1 spell.What you can do from level 1 is cast the spell as a standard, move to someone, and then deliver the spell as a free action. But then you're standing next to the enemy.
The more likely option would be to cast defensively in combat and then touch people. Or not use many touch spells.
Neither understood the rules correctly then. The only way to use spring attack with a spell is either take two rounds, one to cast then a second to make the attack, OR use a quickened spell (swift action) and spring attack with your now held charge as a full round action.
Chess is exactly right. Spring attack is a full round action. That means no standard action spell casting during the round of spring attack. If you had a quickened spell, you could use that and spring attack.
Edit: Ninjad!
Thanks Chess and everyone else that responded. Time to rethink my build ... good thing I havent taken the feat yet.
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The metamagic feat Reach Spell would allow you to make touch attacks at close range. This requires you take the matamagic feat and the spell takes a spell slot one higher than normal.
A Metamagic Rod of Spell Reach will to the same with a little gold investment. The spell won't take up a higher slot, but you'd have to get one and they are only usable 3 times a day for spell levels 1-3 on the cheapest version of the rod.
The metamagic feat Reach Spell would allow you to make touch attacks at close range. This requires you take the matamagic feat and the spell takes a spell slot one higher than normal.
A Metamagic Rod of Spell Reach will to the same with a little gold investment. The spell won't take up a higher slot, but you'd have to get one and they are only usable 3 times a day for spell levels 1-3 on the cheapest version of the rod.
I'll get the feat. Didn't know about the Rod of Spell Reach, will save up for that too.
Also note: The guides I read about mentioning Spring Attack were right, I just got it wrong. They didn't mention 2 rounds so I assumed one.
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longspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.
A percentage of the GMs wouldn't allow you to use the longspear if you have cast a spell that turn as you have already "used" one of your arms.
Even if your GM allow that, if you have a held charge, as soon as you grip the spear you held charge discharge.
Gauntlets allow you to threaten at close range. A Gauntlet is a weapon.
Spiked gauntlets. Gauntlets count as an unarmed attacks. Unless you have improved unarmed strike your unarmed attack don't count as an armed one and so provoke an AoO.
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
They only allow you to deal lethal damage without penalty.
If you have IUS the gauntles are redundant.An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack.
Those instead count as an armed attack.
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The metamagic feat Reach Spell would allow you to make touch attacks at close range. This requires you take the matamagic feat and the spell takes a spell slot one higher than normal.
A Metamagic Rod of Spell Reach will to the same with a little gold investment. The spell won't take up a higher slot, but you'd have to get one and they are only usable 3 times a day for spell levels 1-3 on the cheapest version of the rod.
I'll get the feat. Didn't know about the Rod of Spell Reach, will save up for that too.
Also note: The guides I read about mentioning Spring Attack were right, I just got it wrong. They didn't mention 2 rounds so I assumed one.
Note than the rod can be use 3 times in a day. Unless you play the 15 minutes adventurer day it wouldn't work for all the battles.
And if you miss you can't hold the charge with a reach spell.
The metamagic feat Reach Spell would allow you to make touch attacks at close range. This requires you take the matamagic feat and the spell takes a spell slot one higher than normal.
A Metamagic Rod of Spell Reach will to the same with a little gold investment. The spell won't take up a higher slot, but you'd have to get one and they are only usable 3 times a day for spell levels 1-3 on the cheapest version of the rod.
I'll get the feat. Didn't know about the Rod of Spell Reach, will save up for that too.
Also note: The guides I read about mentioning Spring Attack were right, I just got it wrong. They didn't mention 2 rounds so I assumed one.
Note than the rod can be use 3 times in a day. Unless you play the 15 minutes adventurer day it wouldn't work for all the battles.
And if you miss you can't hold the charge with a reach spell.
Thanks :) I'll go with the longspear, spiked gauntlet, reach spell, summoning and avoid getting up close. As for the rod, I did read about the 3 charges, will need to consider that.
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You can also use Summon Monster and Spiritual Ally to put down a flanker without exposing yourself.
The 1 round casting time of the Summon monster spells can be a problem, but they work fine if you keep that into account.
Spiritual ally is relatively "costly" (4th level spell) but has several advantages (force attack, swift action to move it, not affected by DR, immunity to damage as it is a force effect, not a creature). Against enemies that deal a lot of damage it is better than most summons, as it will survive more than 1-2 rounds.
And if you miss you can't hold the charge with a reach spell.
Can I otherwise?
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For that move/cast spell/attack/move idea there is a way to get it: Flyby attack.
But you need to ask your GM if he allow monster feats (most of them do) and you need a way to get a fly speed. For that you need a way to be always able to fly, not only access to a spell that allow it occasionally, so only winged characters or those with some form of permanent fly ability can take it. Or maybe a druid.
For that move/cast spell/attack/move idea there is a way to get it: Flyby attack.
But you need to ask your GM if he allow monster feats (most of them do) and you need a way to get a fly speed. For that you need a way to be always able to fly, not only access to a spell that allow it occasionally, so only winged characters or those with some form of permanent fly ability can take it. Or maybe a druid.
Its an interesting idea but I can't fly. No wings and no spell that I can cast...
Can I otherwise?
And if you miss you can't hold the charge with a reach spell.
Yes.
So till I hit... I dont need to recast? Thats really great!!!
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longspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.A percentage of the GMs wouldn't allow you to use the longspear if you have cast a spell that turn as you have already "used" one of your arms.
Even if your GM allow that, if you have a held charge, as soon as you grip the spear you held charge discharge.
faq that says it's the rule that you threaten after casting the spell and changing grips as a free action before and after the spell
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Aww man I came here looking for where to get the best Flan.
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faq that says it's the rule that you threaten after casting the spell and changing grips as a free action before and after the spelllongspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.A percentage of the GMs wouldn't allow you to use the longspear if you have cast a spell that turn as you have already "used" one of your arms.
Even if your GM allow that, if you have a held charge, as soon as you grip the spear you held charge discharge.
FAQ say that a magus with spellstrike can change grip after casting a touch spell and while holding the spell. Not any caster.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Changing grip after you have cast a spell fall in the "hand of effort" argument. Some GM don't allow it.
faq that says it's the rule that you threaten after casting the spell and changing grips as a free action before and after the spelllongspear has 10ft reach. On your turn you can hold the spear in one hand and use your now free hand to cast. Then at the end of turn you put that free hand back onto the spear and are ready to provide flanking. This way you never have to be next to an enemy on your turn.A percentage of the GMs wouldn't allow you to use the longspear if you have cast a spell that turn as you have already "used" one of your arms.
Even if your GM allow that, if you have a held charge, as soon as you grip the spear you held charge discharge.
FAQ say that a magus with spellstrike can change grip after casting a touch spell and while holding the spell. Not any caster.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.Changing grip after you have cast a spell fall in the "hand of effort" argument. Some GM don't allow it.
As I understand it any caster can let one hand off the weapon, cast, put hand back on and make AoO or threaten. But you can't put your hand on the weapon if you're holding a charge unless you're a magus.
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As I understand it any caster can let one hand off the weapon, cast, put hand back on and make AoO or threaten. But you can't put your hand on the weapon if you're holding a charge unless you're a magus.
There is some limit to what you can do based on an unwritten and badly defined "hands of effort" rule used by the developers.
There is a FAQ saying that if you attack with a two handed weapon you can't get extra attacks using a spiked armor or improved unarmed strike and kicks.
Some GM take it further and say that if you have used your and some way you can't use it to attack. What I am saying is that it is best to check with your GM to be sure how he rule that.
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As I understand it any caster can let one hand off the weapon, cast, put hand back on and make AoO or threaten. But you can't put your hand on the weapon if you're holding a charge unless you're a magus.There is some limit to what you can do based on an unwritten and badly defined "hands of effort" rule used by the developers.
There is a FAQ saying that if you attack with a two handed weapon you can't get extra attacks using a spiked armor or improved unarmed strike and kicks.
Some GM take it further and say that if you have used your and some way you can't use it to attack. What I am saying is that it is best to check with your GM to be sure how he rule that.
There's a faq that says it's the rule that you threaten after casting the spell and changing grips as a free action before and after the spell.
EDIT: Meaning if you feel the need to verify that this rule works you might want to check about what what other rules the GM intends to ignore.
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As I understand it any caster can let one hand off the weapon, cast, put hand back on and make AoO or threaten. But you can't put your hand on the weapon if you're holding a charge unless you're a magus.There is some limit to what you can do based on an unwritten and badly defined "hands of effort" rule used by the developers.
There is a FAQ saying that if you attack with a two handed weapon you can't get extra attacks using a spiked armor or improved unarmed strike and kicks.
Some GM take it further and say that if you have used your and some way you can't use it to attack. What I am saying is that it is best to check with your GM to be sure how he rule that.
The FAQ involves the unwritten rule(s) regarding Two-weapon Fighting. It covers several things:
1. You cannot normally get more than the sum of 1.5x Strength per set of attacks made with TWF (i.e. more than 1x Strength in main hand and 0.5x Strength in off-hand). This is the "unwritten" rule.
2. Your hands are occupied for the entirety of the TWF action, since you cannot use hands wielding weapons for other things while you are performing the TWF action. This means that you cannot draw fresh weapons and continue making TWF attacks, since your hands are considered occupied with the other weapons you attacked with prior to the ones you just drew, meaning throwing weapons and TWFing are practically impossible without some special finagling. Relevant FAQ for confirmation.
3. These restrictions apply ONLY to Two-Weapon Fighting, and nothing else. Regular Full Attacks or other special abilities do not adhere to those restrictions unless it otherwise indicates so (i.e. Spell Combat and Brawler's Flurry). Relevant FAQ for confirmation.
**EDIT**
In other words, the only reason for a GM to implement those restrictions either A. doesn't adhere or enforce the FAQs, or B. houserules things to oblivion. In either case, you're screwed because of the table, not because of the rules.
In other words, the only reason for a GM to implement those restrictions either A. doesn't adhere or enforce the FAQs, or B. houserules things to oblivion. In either case, you're screwed because of the table, not because of the rules.
Ah yes, and there was this houserule last campaign that I couldn't have an animal companion even though I had the animal domain. There was the other houserule casting-miracle-will-weaken-Erastil. After that I have made a very clear point at the table about houserules.
Given that last session the magus was using the wizard spell list and the GM didn't even notice, I think I won't be asking about how many times I can grip my spear, since from what you guys are saying it's allowed.
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In other words, the only reason for a GM to implement those restrictions either A. doesn't adhere or enforce the FAQs, or B. houserules things to oblivion. In either case, you're screwed because of the table, not because of the rules.Given that last session the magus was using the wizard spell list and the GM didn't even notice, I think I won't be asking about how many times I can grip my spear, since from what you guys are saying it's allowed.
If he spend the resources a magus can learn a few spells from the wizard list.
If he hasn't done that it is a big change in power level.
In other words, the only reason for a GM to implement those restrictions either A. doesn't adhere or enforce the FAQs, or B. houserules things to oblivion. In either case, you're screwed because of the table, not because of the rules.Given that last session the magus was using the wizard spell list and the GM didn't even notice, I think I won't be asking about how many times I can grip my spear, since from what you guys are saying it's allowed.If he spend the resources a magus can learn a few spells from the wizard list.
If he hasn't done that it is a big change in power level.
She's lvl 1, just had not read the class well, GM missed it.
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In other words, the only reason for a GM to implement those restrictions either A. doesn't adhere or enforce the FAQs, or B. houserules things to oblivion. In either case, you're screwed because of the table, not because of the rules.Given that last session the magus was using the wizard spell list and the GM didn't even notice, I think I won't be asking about how many times I can grip my spear, since from what you guys are saying it's allowed.
A lot of Wizard spells are on the Magus list, but not all of them. Certain spells are actually Magus only (and not available to Wizards), and are fairly powerful (Bladed Dash being one of them). I'm not saying that their spell list is interchangable, but that it isn't that big of a deal to let a Magus use the Wizard spell list, since a lot of spells on the Wizard list, a Magus can cast, and others that he would otherwise cast, probably wouldn't for obvious reasons (Mage Armor, for example). In a lot of ways, it's actually a downgrade, since you do miss out on some neat Magus-only spells.
There are Arcana and such that allow the usage of spells from other lists, so as long as the Magus makes those commitments, he's golden. Otherwise, he's technically infringing, and therefore a by-the-rules GM would bring the hammer down.
Also, I wouldn't be too worried about the spear issue. Per the rules and FAQs, as we've demonstrated, you can switch handedness as a free action, each once per round, and casting a spell is a prime example demonstrated in the FAQ that was cited.
If the GM disallows it, despite the overwhelming evidence presented, then you know he's houseruling, in which case it doesn't matter what evidence we bring to light. However, if the GM does adhere to FAQ and Errata, then hopefully it would convince him to let it roll.
If not, then quite frankly you're doomed well before we had the opportunity to help. That's just the nature of homebrew tables with GMs who make up their own rules (which is fine and dandy, but simply means that even if we're right, he can shut us out only on the "His Table = His Rules" basis that he has as a GM).
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I am playing a strength based magus, and I can assure you that I would trade my spell list for that of a wizard without a second tough.
Access to self boosting spells, like heroism, that last teens of minutes and to spells like enervation in exchange for a few class specific spells? Good trade.
Sure, as splat books increase and the specific spells increase it can become less advantageous, but I doubt the wizard list will ever be worse.
Until you reach 7th level or you buy a elven chain mail mage armor give you the same AC of the best armor non magical armor that you can wear with no weight. If you are a kensai magus it is a great spell.
From my point of view the magus spell list is one of the class balancing factors.
At the time the Magus can cast Heroism, he'd be 7th level, and that takes a very precious 3rd level spell slot. Magi don't have the highest Intelligence (nor do they need to), so it's not like they're a Wizard who will just pump their Intelligence to the skies and have all the bonus spells possible to blow on random stuff, meaning he's not using Dispel Magic or similar utility features with that slot.
Mage Armor is useful, but as a Magus who can wear things like Chain Shirts without much issue, it's kind of pointless, and in the early game, your spell slots are invaluable. When he gets higher level and can wear medium armor, it's extremely redundant. Kensai Magus is a special instance, since they can add their Intelligence to AC (and eventually Initiative), but with even further reduced spell slots, it's only really reliable later in the game, in which case Bracers of Armor will defeat the need for that spell when they upgrade it to +8. Heck, even +7 Spellstoring bracers are pretty dang nice, if only for the added utility of forcing enemies to waste their Full Attacks on you with the likes of Frigid Touch.
It's true that he gets spells like Enervation, which are powerful all on their own, but I'd really only value that sort of thing if I was going to take either the Myrmidarch or Eldritch Archer archetypes (since certain Arcana which you would want to use with Enervation, can't be used with it because reasons).
Otherwise, you're losing out on Bladed Dash and Greater Bladed Dash, for example; being able to get off 2 full attacks in a round is crazy-strong, especially with Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasps (and Spellstoring Weapons). There are others that I'm sure exist, but they elude me at the moment...
I'm not saying you're wrong, all I'm saying is that both spell lists have their merits, and they're pretty damn close in terms of raw value, especially in an equal spell progression comparison. In several cases, the Magus shorts himself, and in others, it's a plausible boon. It's like letting a Warpriest use either the Inquisitor or Cleric spell lists, which is probably an equal comparison.
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Enervation
Effect ray of negative energy
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.[/quote+What "reasons" bar that?
It don't work for a Kensai, but:
Spell Recall (Su): At 4th level, the magus learns to use his arcane pool to recall spells he has already cast. With a swift action he can recall any single magus spell that he has already prepared and cast that day by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell's level (minimum 1). The spell is prepared again, just as if it had not been cast.reduce a lot your spell slot problems.
Strength 8... a longspear is 9lbs and a spiked gauntlet 2lbs and my leather armour 15lbs. That iron holy symbol is really weighing me down, time to get a wooden one :P
Thanks for all the responses! Was quite helpful!
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Strength 8... a longspear is 9lbs and a spiked gauntlet 2lbs and my leather armour 15lbs. That iron holy symbol is really weighing me down, time to get a wooden one :P
Thanks for all the responses! Was quite helpful!
Consider getting Mithril and Darkleaf Cloth options if weight is an issue.
Ironically, being Small-sized does reduce the weight of your equipment by 50%, so that's always nice...
Strength 8... a longspear is 9lbs and a spiked gauntlet 2lbs and my leather armour 15lbs. That iron holy symbol is really weighing me down, time to get a wooden one :P
Thanks for all the responses! Was quite helpful!
Consider getting Mithril and Darkleaf Cloth options if weight is an issue.
Ironically, being Small-sized does reduce the weight of your equipment by 50%, so that's always nice...
Thanks, I looked it up and will save for a Mithral Shirt! It's been a real pain trying to keep the weight down.
He's is a medium humanoid... so I can't take advantage of the size :/