Juggernaut's Pauldrons wrote: These massive pauldrons take the shape of a pair of clenched fists made of beaten bronze. They bestow a +4 bonus on CMD, and grant the wearer the ferocity ability. On command, the wearer can increase its size, as though subject to an enlarge person spell, and can revert to regular size with another command. Three times per day, as an immediate action after the pauldrons’ wearer kills an opponent, the wearer gains the benefit of the deadly juggernaut spell for 1 minute. The language here seems to imply that this effect is not optional.
It is not written as follows:
Quote: Three times per day, as an immediate action after the pauldrons' wearer kills an opponent, the wearer may gain the benefits of the deadly juggernaut spell for 1 minute. Not only that, but the trigger activation is potentially prohibitive. If the wearer kills any meaningless mooks earlier in the day for which Deadly Juggernaut would not apply due to its HD restriction. Effectively, wasting a charge in a situation in which they would not benefit.
A separate question regarding the effect:
Does activating the effect from killing an enemy count as having killed one enemy during the effect?
The wording "after" seems to indicate that the death will not count, but there seems to be a huge difference between RAI and RAW with this item already. It would seem rather underpowered if the mandatory effect would activate after any kill and, even when the kill meets the HD restriction, not count towards the accumulated bonus.
It becomes further underpowered when you consider that this requires at least two kills to even benefit from the effect, which likely amounts to two turns and one less swift action on the first turn. By the third turn when you're benefiting from the bonus, you're likely not going to need it anymore because combat is either over or decided without the +1 and 2/- DR needing to be considered.
The only real benefits from this item would be the At-Will enlargement and ferocity, which doesn't truly warrant a 40k price point by itself.
I have never heard of this item so I am going strictly by what you have quoted.
Quote: The language here seems to imply that this effect is not optional. It is optional. There is nothing that forces you to expend an immediate action to activate the ability. If the line had excluded 'as an immediate action' then it would activate automatically with the death of an opponent.
Quote: Not only that, but the trigger activation is potentially prohibitive. If the wearer kills any meaningless mooks earlier in the day for which Deadly Juggernaut would not apply due to its HD restriction. Effectively, wasting a charge in a situation in which they would not benefit.
A separate question regarding the effect:
Does activating the effect from killing an enemy count as having killed one enemy during the effect?
No, it does not, any more than casting the spell itself counts as killing an enemy. It is important to note that the HD of the enemy that you kill is not important at all in regards to triggering the opportunity (3 times per day) of expending an immediate action to gain the benefits of deadly juggernaut. Any enemy of any level that you kill (and in this case they must die) will allow for triggering.
Quote: It would seem rather underpowered if the mandatory effect would activate after any kill and, even when the kill meets the HD restriction, not count towards the accumulated bonus. It is not the case, because while it does 'trigger' the opportunity to activate it after the death of any opponent (regardless of HD) you are not forced to expend the immediate action to activate it. Nothing forces you to do so. If you don't, it doesn't count as activating it.
Once you choose to trigger the deadly juggernaut effect, then for the next minute any enemies you defeat who are at least your level -4 will qualify for the increasing bonuses which is still a very reasonable range and prevents abuses from summoning hordes of celestial monkeys or somesuch that provoke AoOs from you for easy kills. Unlike the trigger for the effect however, these enemies need only be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, not necessarily killed. This may not seem a remarkable difference to killing a foe, but it is a sizable difference (depending on their Con score, which could be a difference of 10-20 damage in most cases).
Quote: The only real benefits from this item would be the At-Will enlargement and ferocity, which doesn't truly warrant a 40k price point by itself. You also forgot the constant +4 CMD bonus. As for whether you think it is still underpowered with a revised outlook, that's up to you.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The immediate action to activate a deadly juggernaut effect (if the PC chooses) is a pretty good deal for most characters (the only exceptions being those classes with other demands on swift actions).
The ferocity ability and the unlimited use enlarge person are nothing to sneeze at, either. Yes, enlarge person is only a modest buff (compared to higher level spells), but the fact that juggernaut's pauldrons allow it to be effectively on during the entire adventuring day (and can also be "turned off" at will) is pretty nice; it also allows the "buy Large ammunition, drop before using enlarge person, pick up Large ammunition, use with enlarged ranged weapon to do Large damage" tactic to be used effectively (as the character doesn't have to wait until right before or after the start of combat). Add in gravity bow (hunter, eldritch archer magus using Spell Blending, ancient lorekeeper oracle, ranger, sorcerer, or wizard; the last two possibly going arcane archer), and that's a really nice damage boost (3d6 weapon damage from a composite longbow).
Dragonchess Player wrote: The ferocity ability and the unlimited use enlarge person are nothing to sneeze at, either. If anything, those abilities are the saving grace of the item. However, they're not worth 40k.
On someone with a reach weapon, being able to leverage AoOs, iterative attacks, and special attack actions (cleave, mirror strike, etc) make for a great pairing with the Enlarge at-will.
Adding in Deadly Juggernaut would sweeten the deal by allowing a ramp-up if it had a more timely activation and lower power-up time.
There's also this inherent issue with missed opportunities, there's no guarantee that your character will get the last hit on two enemies during the combat.
There's too much overhead to use this item as intended.
You even specified a procedure that would take way more turns to properly benefit from the item.
Turn 1: Dropping large arrows, activating Enlarge, picking them up.
Turn 2: Equipping Bow, casting Gravity Bow.
Turn 3: Firing your first arrow, plus other stuff.
Turn 4: Likely being the earliest you could benefit from Deadly Juggernaut at this point, assuming you killed someone on Turn 3.
Now consider the following:
You've other people in your party who are acting on Turns 1, 2, and 3.
Those people are contributing damage and ending the encounter. It's kind of their job, as it is yours.
You'll likely not benefit from your spent charge of Deadly Juggernaut from that item before then.
Pizza Lord wrote: It is optional. That's good, that remedies the potential issues of wasted charges.
Pizza Lord wrote: No, it does not, any more than casting the spell itself counts as killing an enemy. Then it's incredibly underpowered, which is a shame, but I'm glad that's cleared up.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Axoren wrote: You even specified a procedure that would take way more turns to properly benefit from the item.
Turn 1: Dropping large arrows, activating Enlarge, picking them up.
Turn 2: Equipping Bow, casting Gravity Bow.
Turn 3: Firing your first arrow, plus other stuff.
Turn 4: Likely being the earliest you could benefit from Deadly Juggernaut at this point, assuming you killed someone on Turn 3.
You're missing the entire point of "the character doesn't have to wait until right before or after the start of combat." The item description lists CL 5, which means the enlarge person effect lasts 5 minutes at a time. You don't wait until the start of combat to activate enlarge person, because it has unlimited uses; you activate it every 5 minutes, so that you don't need to waste actions in combat and can be effectively enlarged for the entire day.
Juggernaut 's pauldrons are many things, underpowered for 40k isn't one of them, especially for a barbarian.
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