Hey all!
So, I'm running my first campaign of Rise of the Runelords and I've got a bit of a dilemma on my hand. My party just fought and (barely) defeated Xanesha.
Since Xanesha is all about manipulation and control, I thought it would be cool for her to target one of the characters, Tarimm, (who is obsessed with getting more powerful to avenge his father's death) and invade his dreams with promises of immense power. She'd often tell him to avoid places that would further reveal her plans in an effort to stop him and the party.
When they climbed the Shadow Clock and reached the top, the party wanted to rest for a second and rebuff themselves up, sensing a fight incoming, but I had the Major Image demon rattle them and threaten them from above and also had Xanesha charm Tarimm to lure him onto the rooftop with more promises of power. The rest of the party followed. PERFECT.
On top of the roof, the Major Image demon offered Tarimm all the power he could want IF he killed his companions. I was hoping this would be a turning point for the character, having to choose between revenge and the companions he's been adventuring with, and finally giving him the chance to make the group a cohesive unit! Or so I thought... until Tarimm willingly choose to attack his "friends." Immediately, this put a rift in the party. Assuming the illusion was controlling Tarimm, our cleric flew up to it and tried to attack, succeeded his will save and recognized it as fake and informed the group. Annoyed, Xanesha engaged them.
Tarimm, furious he had been duped, rejoined the group to fight Xanesha. During the fight our rogue and our monk both died. Towards the end, when it looked grim, Tarimm began praying to Lamashtu for help (something he's never done before in front of the group). The cleric and Tarimm finished off Xanesha with some lucky crits, but when the battle was over the cleric confronted Tarimm for not only attacking them, but worshipping Lamashtu (the cleric is from Sandpoint and obviously resent Lamashtu for her plans for his home). They briefly fight, the cleric nearly kills Tarimm, but being of good alignment, he allowed Tarimm to leave on the condition that he never shows his face to the group again.
So, now I've got two dead players and a cleric who's sworn to kill Tarimm if they cross paths again and Tarimm himself has denounced the group. It all spiraled so far out of control and I'm at a loss of what to do next.
My current plan:
- The cleric can appeal to the Church of Sarenrae, having just destroyed a bunch of evil artifacts from the Skinsaw Cult, they should be willing to revive his dead friends.
- During a one-on-one session, have Tarimm encounter one of his father's killers. He can be ambushed by them and left for dead.
- Party finds a dying Tarimm and can chose to help him or leave him.
If they help him, that could sway his disposition towards them. Owing them a favour for saving his life. But there's a VERY likely chance that they'll leave him to die, hell, the rogue could even finish him off.
So... anyone got any thoughts?
I think this takes some out-of-character discussion before anything else.
First, it isn't too much of a stretch that the city/church of Sarenrae would be willing to spring for some castings of raise dead on the fallen party members. This is even a great device to further incentivize them to travel to Turtleback Ferry in the next book to aid the Black Arrows in order to pay back the 'generous' Lord Mayor.
Next, I think you should speak with Tarimm's actual player. As it is, it seems like a stretch to have his character rejoin the group. In fact, with what's happened, he could make a great recurring villain / hindrance to the party, one that has a deep personal connection to the party. If they're willing, see if Tarimm's player is willing to roll a new PC (who will be more inclined to actually work together with everyone), and use Tarimm instead as a new antagonist, lured to the side of the rising Runelord and his minions. It wouldn't be a stretch for him to succumb to promises of power from the opposition, seeing as how it's happened once before, and they're big on Lamashtu on the other side.
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If you have a good aligned cleric it would be very difficult for him to work with someone who worships the Mother of demons and who regularly practices Human sacrifice, also he attacked them in exchange for power. I would say Tarimm has pretty much written himself into the role of a bad guy. Either the player needs a new character or a convincing way of changing back to some sane and sensible faith and persuading the others he has changed and frankly I would not believe anything he said as a character.
However I second the idea of getting yourself and the players to talk it out to sort out the next step.
Raise dead for the dead pc's seems perfectly possible as a reward from a good aligned church or paid for by the mayor
I think this takes some out-of-character discussion before anything else.
First, it isn't too much of a stretch that the city/church of Sarenrae would be willing to spring for some castings of raise dead on the fallen party members. This is even a great device to further incentivize them to travel to Turtleback Ferry in the next book to aid the Black Arrows in order to pay back the 'generous' Lord Mayor.
Next, I think you should speak with Tarimm's actual player. As it is, it seems like a stretch to have his character rejoin the group. In fact, with what's happened, he could make a great recurring villain / hindrance to the party, one that has a deep personal connection to the party. If they're willing, see if Tarimm's player is willing to roll a new PC (who will be more inclined to actually work together with everyone), and use Tarimm instead as a new antagonist, lured to the side of the rising Runelord and his minions. It wouldn't be a stretch for him to succumb to promises of power from the opposition, seeing as how it's happened once before, and they're big on Lamashtu on the other side.
I agree, I've sat down and chatted with the cleric and rogue and I'll be sitting down with Tarimm tonight to chat and to run a small little one-on-one "what next" session. As much as I'd love to turn Tarimm into a villain, I know his player won't want to abandon him. He's the best roleplayer in the group and probably the most dedicated to out-of-game research. He's been building Tarimm for months and I doubt he'd want to just flush that all away. Although, I feel like an ultimatum is going to have to be proposed. Tarimm needs to change or you're going to need a new character.
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I would point out to him that the following decisions were not optimim for remaining with a group and were entirely his own fault.
1)Trying to Murder them. Why should they ever trust him again?
2)Worshiping Lamashtu one of if not the most evil and untrustworthy gods in the setting and one many of their enemies worship. Again why would anyone let alone a good aligned cleric work with and trust a monster like that.
I would argue that a good role player would not go all out to antagonize the rest of the group and then expect them to just ignore it.
If he is going to change it would need something big like a geas or mark of justice from the clerics faith to show his commitment to redemption (hopefully your cleric is of a forgiving god like Saranae) if they are not then it will be even harder.
Players have to learn that there are consequences of actions and the consequences of his actions are probably that he needs a new character.
I have to ask because the answer to this is important. Has Tarimm always been a worshiper of Lamashtu, and this is something that was just revealed? Or was this "pray to Lamashtu" bit a one-off thing that Tarimm's player chose as a result of these events?
I have to ask because the answer to this is important. Has Tarimm always been a worshiper of Lamashtu, and this is something that was just revealed? Or was this "pray to Lamashtu" bit a one-off thing that Tarimm's player chose as a result of these events?
It's the first time he's openly done it. However, because he is obsessed with power, and he saw what Lamashtu did "for" Nualia in Sandpoint, he ended up taking a fancy to her.
Also, our previous GM (who I took over for) allowed our party to attempt to save Nualia from Lamashtu's influence. We captured her alive at Thistletop, brought he back to the cathedral and attempted to free Nualia, however, it failed and Nualia ended up becoming a conduit for Lamashtu who just wrecked a bunch of shit while trying to kill us before my character summoned a favour from Sarenrae to banish her. During that "encounter" Lamashtu said she saw promise and strength in Tarimm and, presumably, that's where the connection began.
Tarimm is also an Alchemist who is slowly undergoing a monstrous transformation. He uses the feral mutagen, growing extra arms, etc. So, the Lamashtu thing isn't too far off from his actual character.
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Do your players enjoy player vs. player conflict? If not, Tarimm has to go. He is a character deliberately designed and played to produce it.
I'm not impressed by claims the player is the "best role-player" - he appears to be the worst. Building and playing a character whose likely decisions and behaviors will reduce the fun of others is not good play, it's bad play. This player appears to be a self-absorbed <word that rhymes with bassmole.>
A character who attacks his supposed allies at the drop of a hat and chooses to worship Lamashtu after seeing what she's done to Nualia and Sandpoint is chaotic evil. No sane person wants to spend time with someone who is chaotic evil. Why did you think it was a good idea for him to go down that road? You're just as accountable for this mess as Tarimm's player - you knew this player/pc had these proclivities and forced a confrontation over it at the worst possible time. Without engaging the player before hand. You didn't have to give details but a warning like: "you can't worship Lamashtu and be part of the group" was a needed step. Then when a choice like power vs group arises, the player knows the consequences of his choices.
The GM's #1 accountability is for everyone at the table to have fun - the GM knows more than everyone else, and therefore has the most responsibility. Did everyone have fun? No hard feelings? Unless the answer from everyone is yes, you missed the mark.
I suggest you have a meeting with all the players together and discuss Tarimm's potential return. Unless everyone is good with having a character along who will stab them in the back, some changes need to be made and the other players in the group should have some say or at least visibility into what those changes are.
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It's the first time he's openly done it. However, because he is obsessed with power, and he saw what Lamashtu did "for" Nualia in Sandpoint, he ended up taking a fancy to her.
...
Tarimm is also an Alchemist who is slowly undergoing a monstrous transformation. He uses the feral mutagen, growing extra arms, etc. So, the Lamashtu thing isn't too far off from his actual character.
This is not quite as bad as having started off this way, but...it's still pretty bad. A character with monstrous transformations who finds Lamashtu appealing is in direct conflict with the setup for Rise of the Runelords. Lamashtu isn't just a random evil diety in RotR: she is one of two, central, opposing forces that is responsible for the events that kicked off the AP. The previous GM should never have allowed this character into the game in the first place because it is incompatible with the goals of the PC's and the story line as a whole.
But that ship has sailed, and now you have to deal with it. Tarimm has to change, or he has to go. Fortunately, there is a way out of this that can satisfy the other PC's if Tarimm's player agrees to it, and that's the Atonement spell. You should have zero problems in Magnimar finding a high level cleric (I like the suggestion of a clerifc of Sarenrae) to raise the characters who died in service to the city, and also to do an atonement for Tarimm. He fell under Lamashtu's influence, and can be saved. Problem solved. Atonement can be the motivation for the next step in the adventure, which is Fort Rannick.
But the player has to agree to this and to change. If not, I see no other options except for the character to go (or the player, if they refuse). It doesn't matter how good they may or may not be at RP. They have to be able to play with others, and they have to be able to play within the bounds of the story. If they can't do both of those, the game is going to cease to be fun for everyone.
And that really is the goal: for everyone to have fun. It's not "The Tarimm Show".
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Just to add my $.02 - it's time to retire Tarimm as an active PC. If the player wants to continue to develop him, take that off-table for the whole group and adjudicate it one-on-one with the player. That doesn't mean do a single player campaign (unless you have time for it), but give him a chance to set Tarimm's destiny and let that decide whether or not he crosses the path of the main party again in the future.
Honestly, unless you really enjoy PvP and Tarimm's player is looking for a quick redemption, he's poisoned the well. That should spin off another separate story and he should make up a new PC for the main, ongoing story. Tell him his PC just got a spin-off series and now the main series needs a replacement character.
Oh, and I'll add this as it might serve as some solace to the players whose characters died: the fight with Xanesha is quite deadly. If you go read the many RotR journals, you'll see it is pretty common for this encounter to end in at least one PC's death. Two deaths is a little unusual, but one is not. It's one of the best, and toughest, boss fights out there.
It might help them come to terms with it, and also be less upset with Tarimm's player.
Do your players enjoy player vs. player conflict? If not, Tarimm has to go. He is a character deliberately designed and played to produce it.
I'm not impressed by claims the player is the "best role-player" - he appears to be the worst. Building and playing a character whose likely decisions and behaviors will reduce the fun of others is not good play, it's bad play. This player appears to be a self-absorbed <word that rhymes with bassmole.>
A lot of these decisions were made when I was still a player at the table before I assumed the role of GM. I spent whatever time I could trying to guide Tarimm to the light and had even had out of game conversations with everyone about working with me to ensure they (and their characters) cared about the story and the group moving forward.
And by "best roleplayer" I mean that he stays in character the best. When he's at the table, he's Tarimm the entire night.
But that ship has sailed, and now you have to deal with it. Tarimm has to change, or he has to go. Fortunately, there is a way out of this that can satisfy the other PC's if Tarimm's player agrees to it, and that's the Atonement spell. You should have zero problems in Magnimar finding a high level cleric (I like the suggestion of a clerifc of Sarenrae) to raise the characters who died in service to the city, and also to do an atonement for Tarimm. He fell under Lamashtu's influence, and can be saved. Problem solved. Atonement can be the motivation for the next step in the adventure, which is Fort Rannick.
I wasn't aware of the Atonement spell. I like that! Thank you for that suggestion.
Oh, and I'll add this as it might serve as some solace to the players whose characters died: the fight with Xanesha is quite deadly. If you go read the many RotR journals, you'll see it is pretty common for this encounter to end in at least one PC's death. Two deaths is a little unusual, but one is not. It's one of the best, and toughest, boss fights out there.
Our rogue had a series of unlucky roles and suffered to massive damage via the bell on the way up the clocktower, which burnt through some of the clerics healing spells, so they were short handed heading into Xanesha. But the battle was incredibly epic, especially with Tarimm's betrayal (despite that fallout that ensued).
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It sounds like you have a noncohesive group, where at least one player is more interested in being disruptive and doing their own thing than playing as a group. I've been there: this situation sucks.
In this situation, I would put the game itself on hold for a little while. During the hiatus, I would have out-of-game discussions with each individual player to find out what exactly how they feel about the current situation, and what they want out of the game.
In my experience, in-game PvP is an acid that can eat away at the real-world friendships between players. I have zero tolerance for PvP in my games, and will bring the game to a halt if it seems like it's going in that direction.
That said, in this situation, I think you erred by tempting the most disruptive player in your group with a situation that would reward more bad behavior, especially if you knew that the character was a secret demon-worshiper. In that situation, you gave the player tacit approval to start PvP combat in the middle of a fight with a very dangerous opponent.
If I were the GM, I'd have a one-on-one, out-of-game discussion with the player of Tarimm. I'd tell him that he is disrupting the game to the point that the other players including you aren't having fun with the game. I'd give him one more chance to be cooperative, but tell him that if he starts being disruptive again, you're going to have to ask him to leave the gaming group. I would also tell him that if he does want to stay in the game, he'll need to make a new good-aligned character, as Tarminn has now become an NPC villain.
I would probably expect the player not to accept those terms and leave on his own accord. So it goes. I'd rather not play at all than play in a bad game.
RPGs are a cooperative game. Basically, this guy has to learn how to play well with others.
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Do your players enjoy player vs. player conflict? If not, Tarimm has to go. He is a character deliberately designed and played to produce it.
I'm not impressed by claims the player is the "best role-player" - he appears to be the worst. Building and playing a character whose likely decisions and behaviors will reduce the fun of others is not good play, it's bad play. This player appears to be a self-absorbed <word that rhymes with bassmole.>
A lot of these decisions were made when I was still a player at the table before I assumed the role of GM. I spent whatever time I could trying to guide Tarimm to the light and had even had out of game conversations with everyone about working with me to ensure they (and their characters) cared about the story and the group moving forward.
And by "best roleplayer" I mean that he stays in character the best. When he's at the table, he's Tarimm the entire night.
I get (and think we all get) that the character's origin and some development happened before you took the wheel. But you have the wheel now and you're driving the car. Where it goes is on you. And you've gotten a lot of judgement disguised as feedback (from me included.) We're all reacting to the player v. player activity and our experiences with how distasteful and destructive it can be. That you openly invited the outcome only threw gasoline on the fire. Yes, dark forces would make corrupting offers to the pc's and having that happen increases the authenticity of the world etc. But a GM had better be really confident in how it's going to play out if he goes down that road.
Maybe Tarimm's player regrets how it turned out or didn't think through the consequences. Maybe. But I think many of us have seen this type of player before. "I'm just role-playing my character." No, you designed your character to give you a license to be a Total Richard and then you were one. Frankly, they are the worst kind of player to have at a table. The conversation should be simple: re-conceive your character so he has a lot more reasons to cooperate with the other players then to ever consider betraying them and then live it or the character is done as a pc.
I remember when I ran Serpent's Skull for some coworkers, one guy wanted to play a secret demon worshipper. It ended when another player hit him in the back of the head with a frying pan and the cops were called.
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I'm bit confused about why you allowed Lamasthan character in this AP in first place .-. I mean, lamasthans are recurring villains in this ap, besides Nualia and Erylium, there are some of Kreeg ogres(and Black Magga) and later there is divine guardian revived by Lamashtu herself... Why would Lamashtu offer powers for someone who keeps ruining her plans for Lost Coast?
I'm bit confused about why you allowed Lamasthan character in this AP in first place .-. I mean, lamasthans are recurring villains in this ap, besides Nualia and Erylium, there are some of Kreeg ogres(and Black Magga) and later there is divine guardian revived by Lamashtu herself... Why would Lamashtu offer powers for someone who keeps ruining her plans for Lost Coast?
that wasn't the OP, the DM before him, who dropped out, allowed that.
I get (and think we all get) that the character's origin and some development happened before you took the wheel. But you have the wheel now and you're driving the car. Where it goes is on you. And you've gotten a lot of judgement disguised as feedback (from me included.) We're all reacting to the player v. player activity and our experiences with how distasteful and destructive it can be. That you openly invited the outcome only threw gasoline on the fire. Yes, dark forces would make corrupting offers to the pc's and having that happen increases the authenticity of the world etc. But a GM had better be really confident in how it's going to play out if he goes down that road.
You're absolutely right, I goofed hard on this one. I was banking on the fact that I had a very specific conversation with all of the players about moving forward as a cohesive group (to keep character tension, but still have a unified goal) and everyone seemed to be on the same page. I wanted to use this as a story reason where Tarimm finally solidifies his allegiance to group (which was slowly building prior to this). But, alas, it went haywire and here I am. And as a first time GM, I guess I learned a valuable lesson.
In case any of you are wondering how I'm dealing with this currently, here's what I've been doing. I'm actually roommates with Tarimm's player, so it lends itself to easy "solo sessions" that I've been running in hopes of guiding him back on track. I'm hoping by running him through these sessions he has suitable character motivation to not only work with the party again, but be willing to do what they need him to do in order to trust him again. The conditions I'm going to set in order to move on are:
- Renounce Lamashtu, as many have said, she's a recurring villain in this AP and would not ally herself with a character who frequently disrupts her plans. Not to mention, she's crazy evil.
- Recognize that his obsession with revenge isn't the be-all and end-all of his character, that perhaps he's meant for something greater.
- Acknowledge that the world has a greater threat facing it and even if he were to "save" his people from the orc that killed his father, they'd surely perish shortly after the calamity to come.
- As strong as he is by himself, he will require the help of his companions, he need not become BFFs with them, but if they don't reunite, the world will fall into darkness.
It is my hope that the tables will then change. Instead of the group urging Tarimm to do good or care about the problems of others, it will then by Tarimm urging the group to trust him again in order to fulfill their destinies.
Wish me luck, friends.
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I'm bit confused about why you allowed Lamasthan character in this AP in first place .-. I mean, lamasthans are recurring villains in this ap, besides Nualia and Erylium, there are some of Kreeg ogres(and Black Magga) and later there is divine guardian revived by Lamashtu herself... Why would Lamashtu offer powers for someone who keeps ruining her plans for Lost Coast?that wasn't the OP, the DM before him, who dropped out, allowed that.
Well, yeah, but he is the GM now. You don't have to allow everything just because previous GM did.
Well, yeah, but he is the GM now. You don't have to allow everything just because previous GM did.
yes, but telling players that they suddenly cant have/do things anymore because you are gm now can create bad feelings, especially if it hasn't caused problems yet.
Well, yeah, but he is the GM now. You don't have to allow everything just because previous GM did.yes, but telling players that they suddenly cant have/do things anymore because you are gm now can create bad feelings, especially if it hasn't caused problems yet.
Well, it sure has now...
- Recognize that his obsession with revenge isn't the be-all and end-all of his character, that perhaps he's meant for something greater.
And to hogpile on the previous GM - letting a pc start the campaign with a major revenge focus is a bad idea. Because unless the target of revenge is a major player in the AP (See also Princess Bride) the pc's motivation is going to be at odds with the story.
Group: We need to go to Magnimar to investigate the source of the latest <Bad Stuff.>
Revenge PC: No, I'm going to Riddleport - that's where I can find the so-and-so that killed my dad.
A little update, I've finished the little side-quest with Tarimm and it went favourably. Just waiting for the next session with the rest of the players to see how they cope with everything (Tarimm will be absent from a few sessions, so his in-game absent will actually be felt!).
If you're all interested, I'll happily write a brief summary of how it all plays out and hopefully, how I pieced it all back together again!
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A little update, I've finished the little side-quest with Tarimm and it went favourably. Just waiting for the next session with the rest of the players to see how they cope with everything (Tarimm will be absent from a few sessions, so his in-game absent will actually be felt!).
If you're all interested, I'll happily write a brief summary of how it all plays out and hopefully, how I pieced it all back together again!
Just read through whole thread, I would definitely be interested in an update. Good luck!