|
Found them, thanks!
I am considering buying the AP, but I also know that if I did it'd be an investment in the future - perhaps 2-5 years out - because I recently bought the Curse of the Crimson Throne anniversary leather-bound, am currently running Council of Thieves, and there are only 24 hours per day and 7 days per week...
Another question. I am considering using the Rebellion rules starting with book 2 (of CoT) - the PCs will be 3rd to 5th level - because that seems like something they would be interested in doing that if done with care would make the AP more exciting.
Any advice on implementing?
Off the top of my head, I could see some interaction with the finale of the AP, somehow using the mechanics as an alternative to the existing resolution mechanics in book 6.
You may want to look at using Ultimate Intrigue in Council of Thieves (spoilers) in place of making it a straight rebellion. Despite the opening scene speech, the AP isn't really about overthrowing the Westcrown government or fighting against house Thrune.
Dragonchess Player, What are the functions of the Rebellion rules?
To build an (illegal) organization dedicated to the removing the current power structure (and, eventually, restoring the original, pre-Thrune, one).
The Children of Westcrown in Council of Thieves, on the other hand, is unsanctioned more than illegal and the AP is set up more for the organization to gain influence within the existing power structure (with the goal of reforming/inspiring the current society). In a sense, the CoT AP is actually about preventing a rebellion from succeeding (that of Ecarrdian and Chammady).
A lot of this has to do with the differing character of each city/ruler: Kintargo is a fractious, still vibrant city with a newly installed tyrant just starting to clamp down on the populace; Westcrown is a mostly apathetic, long diminished city with a mayor that enforces the existing laws (somewhat), but leaves them pretty much alone otherwise (being enamored of art and entertainment over domination and power).
|
|
Dragonchess Player, What are the functions of the Rebellion rules?To build an (illegal) organization dedicated to the removing the current power structure (and, eventually, restoring the original, pre-Thrune, one).
The Children of Westcrown in Council of Thieves, on the other hand, is unsanctioned more than illegal and the AP is set up more for the organization to gain influence within the existing power structure (with the goal of reforming/inspiring the current society). In a sense, the CoT AP is actually about preventing a rebellion from succeeding (that of Ecarrdian and Chammady).
A lot of this has to do with the differing character of each city/ruler: Kintargo is a fractious, still vibrant city with a newly installed tyrant just starting to clamp down on the populace; Westcrown is a mostly apathetic, long diminished city with a mayor that enforces the existing laws (somewhat), but leaves them pretty much alone otherwise (being enamored of art and entertainment over domination and power).
Two things.
First, I when I asked "what are the functions" I meant mechanics (not story).
So my first question still stands!
(Btw, I have long been a fan of your intrigue inclusions to CoT - I have been running my game similarly and look forward to using your posts as an additional resource, even if we don't agree on everything)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the system works fine. I'm the DM for our Hell's Rebels campaign, and I was first wary of the players wanting to coax out extra power out of the system, in the sense that they would want to use the teams in play a lot - as cannon fodder, for example. So initially I was very cautious and separated the "ordinary game" and the "rebellion game" hard. This, however, became a bit stiff and too much out-of-character for us. It felt like we played two games. And since my players took to the task of starting and organizing a rebellion with such gusto, finding teams, naming the members etc., I relaxed my separation rule quite a bit, and then we found that the idea started to shine.
While we still roll and go through the weekly phases, they can use the team members for other stuff than just what they've decided for the week - within limits, of course. I also let them use the whole teams for other things than just what the rather strict rules say, as long as it is somewhat in line with what the rules say the teams can do.
And if they want to use their teams too much I either stress that their busy with their weekly task, or if a team is not assigned, I use the excuse of the rebellion's inherent 'chaoticness' - their team members are out drunk, have other plans, can't be found, don't feel like it, think the PCs plan sucks :) and so on, and my players think that's fine. And since we've given the teams names, named several members, and there's several fun personalities in each team, the players see them as people and not just as expendable assets... most of the time :) 'No way mate, I'm not going down that hole first - you lot are the leaders of this rebellion, so lead by example!'
My players enjoy seeing their rebellion grow and to plan what teams to recruit. They also enjoy seeing the number of supporters rise (or fall...) along with their actions, and of course, the rewards and boons. But if we had continued to keep the compartmentalization between the rebellion rules and the rest of the campaign tight, I don't think it would had worked out as well, for our group at least.
So I would recommend the system, but I would advice incorporating it more with the campaign itself than Hell's Rebels does, and make NPCs (don't have to be statted) out of some team members. That way the system might come alive and won't stay as much a separate mini-game. Will be some extra work, but that can easily be delegated (mostly) to the players. Make them come up with names and personalities for some people in each team, tweak it a bit, and have fun!
As for mixing it with CoT I can't give any advice, as I haven't DM:ed/played it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anyway, I don't think it matters. Regardless of our secrecy points people just seem to walk in to our base so they can explain where the next dungeon is.
Yeesh...
A little imagination from your GM would make things better. That's just about as bad as the "You're all in a tavern, when this stranger walks up and..." cliche.
As with most of the optional systems that Pazio puts into the APs, it's up to the GM to incorporate them into the narrative. Instead of "people...walk in to our base so they can explain where the next dungeon is," a (very) small amount of effort could switch that into "Our information gatherers have discovered someone that may know about X. Do we want to arrange a meeting at Long Road Coffee House?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, in hindsight, I would cut the Rebellion subsystem.
I have struggled to tie the Rebellion subsystem to their actual actions and it often feels more restrictive than an addition. The main problem I think stems from the fact that the rebellion system acts on a timescale of a week, whereas the players are typically not going to want to feel like they should just spend a week letting the villains do whatever they want while they wait for their teams to carry out some act.
As a result, I find that they tend to jump ranks a lot (multiple ranks a week was pretty common) and that when they tend to do other rebellion linked tasks, I tend to reward them for it in the rebellion subsystem just to give them a reason behind the two.
I will say Notoriety tracking is good. I will say maintaining the idea of a rebellion and adding allies to their ranks is good. But I think the actual subsystem with Rebellion Actions is kind of subpar at best.
I'm still in the process of gearing up for Hell's Rebels (there's Christmas and a post-Christmas trip to NZ to visit the in-laws before it starts), and I had much the same question.
I ran a nation-(re)building campaign, which started just before Ultimate Campaign was released, so by the time we got to the PCs-as-leaders section, it was out and in my hands. So I broke out the kingdom mechanics and handed them to my players... and regretted it ever since (yes, even now that the campaign is long over).
Aside from the many quibbles I developed over the ~2 years it was part of my campaign, there were a three things about it that really didn't do it for me:
People Don't Matter: People are the single most vital part of any nation, especially ones more primitive than contemporary Earth. They are slow to produce, hard to replace and essential for doing anything. They are also one of the most important things about roleplay - for players to empathize or value it, something needs a face. For your kingdom, that means your people. Sadly, the Kingdom rules pretty much ignores them completely.
Completely Detached: Everything in the kingdom building rules is largely detached from the rest of the game. If an event happens where plague strikes a village, or bandits raid supplies, it doesn't prompt an adventure or activity on the PCs part (even if said PCs include a high level cleric with a personal agenda of fighting diseases), but instead boils down to a single abstract die roll. While I can understand why it has been written this way, I found the system on the whole largely distracted people from the campagin more than it added.
Time Based Reward Systems and Activity Based Reward Systems Don't Mesh Well: Pathfinder is an activity based game where action results in XP and Wealth, and both translate into power. Any time based system that awards wealth, by definition, awards power. And a time based system that can award a LOT of wealth in turn awards a LOT of power, and game balance quickly is thrown out the window.
Needless to say, I was a little leery of the Rebellion subsystem for HR... but having read it have had a lot of my concerns assuaged. Though I am still intending to run it "Under The Hood" - i.e. Not give out the actual mechanics to the players, but simply ask them to make decisions in character while roleplaying the characters / minions. This might seem to be depriving the players of agency in the campaign... but frankly I find they tend to get easily distracted by mini-games and those most prone to obsess over such have a long history of never fully reading/grokking the rules and subsequently making terrible decisions. Like, "this will destroy any hope of progression/survival" decisions.
A lot of the suggestions in this thread are quite excellent though, and I am taking on board. In particular the assigning of personalities; An NPC only transforms from a statblock to a 'person' when it has a personality that is played out at the table. And players will (usually) treat a person very differently to a statblock.
I'm still in the process of gearing up for Hell's Rebels (there's Christmas and a post-Christmas trip to NZ to visit the in-laws before it starts), and I had much the same question.
Yay! I love your thoughts and changes for CoT and I'm really looking forward to your ideas on this campaign as well! Welcome to Kintargo!
|
I don't find the downtime system worth it. The primary mechanic is to make a series of checks each week to, for the most part, tread water.[...]
So yeah, skip the downtime system unless someone who has played deeper in says "it's super cool and important later."
About to finish book 1 of Hell's Rebels (as a player), and I'm feeling the same about the Rebellion system. The system detracts a bit from the story. To make the Rebellion vibrant and alive a GM would have to allocate a lot of time to it (come up with NPC names and such... etc. Have the rebel teams actually report to PCs and make them important; of course, some GMs can absolutely do this, but some others are fine with the 'sheet' abstraction and don't really care about specifics)
I'm also running Hell's Vengeance (as a GM) and find that Rebellion Point system much easier to handle and integrated in the story (events occur as you accrue Rebellion Points). Granted, a GM could just stop counting the points and run the encounters, but I used the point as a barometer of the mood in town, and actually threw additional encounters at the evil PCs when they riled up the population beyond the recommended Rebellion point numbers...
Having read through the adventure path a little more thoroughly, I'm still fairly convinced to keep the Rebellion mechanics "Under the Hood", and instead flesh out and roleplay the characters in it interacting with the PCs. This will probably also help the transition from Book 4 to 5 for my group, wherein the Rebellion mechanics are largely retired anyway.
There are some things I want to tinker with, specifically:
On one hand, rewarding the players for putting effort into the rebellion is cool. On the other hand, the gifts are extremely generous and a little immersion breaking, especially at the lower levels, and given the minimal amount of coin produced by the Earn Gold actions. I am looking at replacing all gifts of items with a bonus Contact, and all gifts of coin with a bonus Ally.
- Contact: A contact is an NPC who hears of and seeks to approach the Silver Ravens as a unique form of supporter (+1 supporter) who can provide the PCs with aid, intelligence or assistance in obtaining goods or services at lower prices. Example: Crunchjaw, the tavern owner, who might throw in his lot with the Silver Ravens, and permit the PCs to use his backrooms for meetings and as a staging ground, and provide them with rumor and gossip overheard in his tavern.
- Ally: An ally is an NPC who hears of the Silver Ravens and wants to be a part of the action. They are either drawn from interesting characters in Kintargo or created to suit, and can either serve in a leadership role for the Rebellion, or even accompany the PCs on missions. Example: Zea, the tiefling cutpurse, who after the Silver Ravens aided in saving the tieflings of the Nursery chose to throw in her lot with them and take the fight to the 'Thrunies'
Again, while rewards for effort into the Rebellion are a good thing, an XP award isn't exactly to my tastes... especially since I tend to use milestone leveling. Instead of granting XP at these ranks, I am intending to have it be a prompt for an addition mission for the PCs. Whether this is in the form of a small module (e.g. No Word from Deepmar) or something of my own creation is something I'll need to figure out along the way.
I like the concept of the events, but (much like with Ultimate Campaign's kingdom rules) find the focus on making a subsystem check (Loyalty, Secrecy or Security) to be a little too abstract for my tastes. For the most part I'll be using the events as prompts for PC challenges, more akin to complex random encounters than something to deal with by Rebellion mechanics alone. Example: Failed Protest might result in a 1d6 supporters killed, and 1d6 supporters captured and scheduled for excrutiation, prompting the PCs to act to save the captives before their grizzly demise.
These are the primary factors of the Rebellion mechanic, but one I will likely not be using too much. The Loyalty check for upkeep, for example, is a mechanic that is detached from player action and only an issue at low ranks - after a bit of play the Loyalty bonus from ranks, PC stats and allies will be such that it cannot fail, but the bonus supporters will not really be a dramatic boost.
- Upkeep: This I'm intending to run more off camera, and largely be dependent on what the PCs did/attempted in the previous week/period and how such things went. Though I'll be keeping the Notoriety thing as is, as I do really like the concept of consequence for being blase'.
- Team Actions: Rather than have Rebel Actions be a matter of assigning a team and rolling a L/Se/Sc check, I'm instead thinking of having the specific team leaders make the check, with a bonus based on the team, specifically.... more on this later.
- Officers: Rather than assign officers and grant bonus to L/Se/Sc, I'm looking to apply the PCs and allies more directly to the events of the Rebellion. Namely, officers can perform actions like Recruitment (higher DC and using Diplomacy, Perform [oratory] etc), or personally lead a team to undertake a Rebellion action, which grants bonuses to the checks to succeed.
I like the idea that each team gets a little more fleshed out, with at the least the leader getting a name and personalty and the team as a whole having a listed trait, available actions and their bonuses to it.
For example;
Team: Crowes' Crew
Rank: 1
Leader: Forvion Crowe (CG human rogue 1)
Members: (5) Human warrior 1 ex-mercenaries
Actions: Reduce Danger +5 (placeholder number) [+2 bonus to an officer]
Traits: Feisty team of ex-mercenaries whose dedication to the cause of taking down Thrune is second only to their dedication to exhausting the Tooth & Nail's ale supplies. Officers assigned to this team who join in their revelry receive an additional +1 bonus to activity checks; those who refuse reduce the bonus the team grants by 1.
Team Rank is also reasonably analogous to the level of the NPCs involved, and thus I'd pay that ranks above 3rd can exist, but get progressively harder/more expensive to upgrade. Additionally, I'd be assigning the action each team gains with a new rank depending on the team's character(s) and the Rebellion's needs.
On the other hand, the main adjustment is deciding what skill checks (and DCs) would replace the current check for each Rebel Action.
Brainstorming a little...
Activate Black Market: Currently a DC20 Secrecy check. Replace with a DC10+Danger check for either; Appraise, Bluff, Linguistics, Sleight of Hand or Stealth.
Activate Safe House: No check required. Lasts 1 week. Another team can use a safehouse to gain a +4 bonus on any rebel action check that week. Only one team can receive this bonus per safehouse.
Change Officer Role: Removed - officers assignments are generally more flexible.
Covert Action: Bonus to next action check is equal to the Covert Action bonus of the team - typically the Charisma modifier of the team leader, or the Cha modifier of an assigned officer plus 2.
Dismiss Team: Dismissing a rank 1 team requires a DC15 Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate check. The DC increases by +5 for each rank above 1st.
Earn Gold: Roll an Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform (oratory) or Sleight of Hand check and halve the result. You earn this amount of gold for the Rebellion. For team ranks above 1st, multiply the result by your team's rank.
Gather Information: Refer to the standard use of Diplomacy, except in this instance the action can use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive or Stealth, and reveals 1d4 pieces of information on a success.
Guarantee Event: No change
Knowledge Check: Just have the team make a Knowledge check, with bonuses as appropriate (refer to team stats).
Lie Low: No change.
Manipulate Events: No change.
Recruit Supporters: Change to a DC15+Rebellion Rank Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate or Perform (oratory) check. 1d6 supporters per character level of the recruiting officer.
Recruit Team: I'd likely ignore this in favor of roleplay, personally, and run most of them akin to Forvion Crowe's team.
Reduce Danger: DC15 Check for Bluff, Intimidate, Spellcraft, Stealth or equal to the leader's attack roll.
Refresh Marketplace: No change
Rescue Character: DC15 + Captured character's level. Can use Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand or Stealth. Using this action more than once per week increases the DC of each subsequent rescue action by +2.
Restore Character: This should be roleplayed out.
Sabotage: DC10 plus half your current notoriety. Applicable skills are Bluff, Disable Device, Stealth and Use Magic Device.
Secure Cache: I'll get back to this
Special Order: No change
Spread Disinformation: DC20 Bluff, Diplomacy, Linguistics or Sleight of Hand.
Upgrade Team: No change
Urban Influence: No change.
At least... that's how I'd start it off, anyway <_<;
... Yeah, I am rambling. Stopping now. Finding more coffee.
[Hijack Thread]
Playing with the idea that if the team works on its own for Rebellion Action, it uses the leader's listed skill bonus. If it is joined by an officer, it gives a bonus to the Officer's skill check equal to the leader's ability score modifier [listed in square brackets]
And some ideas for teams...
Team Name: Fushi Sisters
Rank: 1 (1st level)
Leader: Korva Fushi (CN female tengu rogue 2)
Team: (3) Jay, Maggie, Treep (female tengu rogue 1)
Actions: Earn Gold +7 [+3]; Gather Information +9 [+2]
Traits: The Fushi sisters' first loyalty is to each other, as their small group is the only family they have. They are difficult to get along with for most people, as their general lack of regard for the concept of personal property puts them at odds with those whose valuables they 'borrow', but an officer who befriends them soon finds themselves being treat as part of the family, and gains an additional +1 to the above bonuses when with the team.
Team Name: Aria Park Rangers
Rank: 1 (1st level)
Leader: Marus Crassin (CG male chelaxian slayer 1); Bold - some would say reckless - Marus is a firebrand in Kintargo and was among the first to start throwing stones in the Aria Park protests. He is itching to take the fight to Thrune and will frequently volounteer his team for any task that might bring them into conflict with the Chelish Citizen's Brigade.
Team: (5) (human warrior 1)
Actions: Reduce Danger +6 [+3]
Traits: Formed from a number of other veterans of the Aria Park Protests, Marus and his team named themselves after the incident - as a reminder for what they fight against. When lead by an officer who was part of the Aria Park protest, they grant an additional +1 bonus on top of those listed above. Lead by anyone else, they reduce the bonus they give by 1.
Team Name: Villegre Players
Rank: 1 (1st level)
Leader: Monica Lupes (NG female varisian bard 1); Monica is Kintargo-born, but of varisian descent, her parents immigrating here decades ago from Korvosa. She is garrulous, outgoing and highly protective of her 'troupe', preferring to keep their involvement non-violent.
Team: (5) (human expert 1)
Actions: Gather Information +8 [+3]
Traits: The Villegre Players are an informal group of street performers and entertainers who have worked in Villegre Park for years, though the membership has changed many times in that period. Officers with at least 5 ranks in a Perform skill gain an additional +1 bonus to all rebel actions when with this group, while officers without any ranks in a Perform skill reduce the bonus granted by the team by 1.
[/Hijack Thread]