1. No, a monster is not displayed unless there is some power that tells you to display it. If you encounter the top card of a location deck and it is a monster, it is still the top card of that location deck until the encounter is resolved (at which point you'll usually either banish it or shuffle it back into the deck). Summoned monsters are just kinda "there" and not part of any deck, but they are similarly not displayed either unless the power that summoned them tells you to display them.
2. I don't have Mummy's Mask yet, so can't really answer this one, sorry :(
3. Yes, burying a card to use a power on that card counts as playing that card. The location would take precedence, but that is a trick question -- precedence doesn't actually come into effect because the two powers aren't contradicting each other. Instead, the location power is just asking you to do an impossible action (which you ignore). The wording is "When you play a weapon", not "When you would play a weapon" -- that means the weapon is already played by the time that power takes effect. You buried the weapon in order to play it, so by the time that location power takes effect the Torch is already buried. Since we have a rule that if we're told to recharge, discard, bury, banish, etc. cards they must come from our hand unless we're explicitly told otherwise, the location power then says "now go ahead and discard that weapon from your hand." Since it's no longer in our hand, that instruction is impossible and as such we ignore it.
I don't have my Mummy's Mask yet either (it has been picked up by UPS now though, so hopefully this week). But, why did you keep examining the Aghash over and over again? I don't have the cards, but I'm trying to grasp the crux of the issue.
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As far as #1 and #3, skizzerz is correct. Nothing more needs to be said.
#2) Two locations left: A has the villain alone. B has Aghash on top of it. And Sandstorm has the fun power of moving everyone to a random location which means open or closed then everyone examines the top card.
At worst, you're going to keep feeding the blessings deck with Sandstorms (until there are none left in the box). You flip a Sandstorm from the blessings, one of you lands on B and examines; Aghash triggers and adds a Sandstorm to the blessings deck. But then the player who's up can move to A and defeat the villain. If someone is on B try to temp-close; if they fail or no one there, then the villain escapes to B. It isn't a horrible situation but it can be a pain.
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I don't have my Mummy's Mask yet either (it has been picked up by UPS now though, so hopefully this week). But, why did you keep examining the Aghash over and over again? I don't have the cards, but I'm trying to grasp the crux of the issue.
That's what I'm trying to understand. You'd only activate Sandstorm once per turn if it's in the blessings deck. And if you land on the location with Aghash, you'd feed the blessings deck again (for a later turn).
3. Yes, burying a card to use a power on that card counts as playing that card. The location would take precedence, but that is a trick question -- precedence doesn't actually come into effect because the two powers aren't contradicting each other. Instead, the location power is just asking you to do an impossible action (which you ignore). The wording is "When you play a weapon", not "When you would play a weapon" -- that means the weapon is already played by the time that power takes effect. You buried the weapon in order to play it, so by the time that location power takes effect the Torch is already buried. Since we have a rule that if we're told to recharge, discard, bury, banish, etc. cards they must come from our hand unless we're explicitly told otherwise, the location power then says "now go ahead and discard that weapon from your hand." Since it's no longer in our hand, that instruction is impossible and as such we ignore it.
This doesn't seem so clear cut to me. We have this FAQ:
"If I reveal a card for a power, and then something messes with my hand, is the revealed card in my hand? What if I display it? If I discard a card that could be recharged, but something messes with my discard pile before I can make the check to recharge it, is the card really in the discard pile?
Revealing and displaying happen instantly. Every other action waits until you know what action it really is.
Resolution: On page 10 of the rulebook, after the bulleted list of possible actions, add the following: "When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. While set aside, a card does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else."
As per the above, I would argue the buried Torch is "set aside"; then, the Location power kicks in and what we have, basically is:
Torch says: I must get buried
Hot Springs says: Nope, you got played. You must be discarded!
As per the Golden Rule, Location trumps the weapon card.
EDIT: Alternatively, I can get behind Skizzers' statement that the two effects don't contradict each other and that we're not talking about location/weapon presedence. In this case, still, I'd argue that the Torch gets 'set aside' and then two things must simultaneously happen with it - it must be discarded, and it must be buried - and therefore it's player's choice in which order to execute them. My guess is, most players will chose to discard it.
3. Yes, burying a card to use a power on that card counts as playing that card. The location would take precedence, but that is a trick question -- precedence doesn't actually come into effect because the two powers aren't contradicting each other. Instead, the location power is just asking you to do an impossible action (which you ignore). The wording is "When you play a weapon", not "When you would play a weapon" -- that means the weapon is already played by the time that power takes effect. You buried the weapon in order to play it, so by the time that location power takes effect the Torch is already buried. Since we have a rule that if we're told to recharge, discard, bury, banish, etc. cards they must come from our hand unless we're explicitly told otherwise, the location power then says "now go ahead and discard that weapon from your hand." Since it's no longer in our hand, that instruction is impossible and as such we ignore it.This doesn't seem so clear cut to me. We have this FAQ:
..."If I reveal a card for a power, and then something messes with my hand, is the revealed card in my hand? What if I display it? If I discard a card that could be recharged, but something messes with my discard pile before I can make the check to recharge it, is the card really in the discard pile?
Revealing and displaying happen instantly. Every other action waits until you know what action it really is.
Resolution: On page 10 of the rulebook, after the bulleted list of possible actions, add the following: "When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. While set aside, a card does
That rule doesn't apply here though; you are not told to do anything instead of burying it -- you're just told to discard it after you play it (finish one thing before you start something else implies that you finish processing all of the effects of the weapon -- including burying it -- before you begin processing the location's trigger effect). Spells are different because while processing the card's power you're told to potentially do multiple things with it, depending on whether or not you have the skill:
1. If you don't have the skill, you banish the spell right away to play it. The rule you quoted doesn't come into effect because it is unambiguous where it will end up.2. If you have the skill, you set it aside to play it. Then, you discard or recharge based on the result of the check (attempted during one of the "Attempt the Next Check, If Needed" steps of the encounter).
Consider now the Erinyes Devil which states "If you play a boon that has the Divine trait, banish it." The wording here is "If you play", which unlike a trigger power ("When you play") is always in effect. Therefore, it applies in the same way that the text of banishing spells does if you don't have the requisite skill.
Spells are different because while processing the card's power you're told to potentially do multiple things with it, depending on whether or not you have the skill:
1. If you don't have the skill, you banish the spell right away to play it. The rule you quoted doesn't come into effect because it is unambiguous where it will end up.
2. If you have the skill, you set it aside to play it. Then, you discard or recharge based on the result of the check (attempted during one of the "Attempt the Next Check, If Needed" steps of the encounter).
I just don't see this from the FAQ. The very example given is with spell being discarded. And the spells we're discuss always state "Discard for effect X" and only then "AFTER you play this spell...banish it" (by your own logic, I must have discarded=played it first, to have an 'after you play it' clause). Therefore, the spell is clearly "set aside" before being determined if it is banished/discarded/recharged.
Consider now the Erinyes Devil which states "If you play a boon that has the Divine trait, banish it." The wording here is "If you play", which unlike a trigger power ("When you play") is always in effect. Therefore, it applies in the same way that the text of banishing spells does if you don't have the requisite skill.
Apologies, but I think this distinction you make is very arbitrary. "If you play" is as much a trigger as "when you play", and I'd say it's actually identical in effect.
Consider the argument you make for Torch VS Hot Springs: if you buried/played the Torch, then the weapon is no more in your hand, so the Location doesn't trigger, due to a valid 'in your hand' target. Now how is this any different from when I discard a blessing against an Eryness Devil and tells me to banish something that is no longer in my hand?I almost suspect what's tripping people up here is that we have an effect (the location power) that is clearly meant to be detrimental, but taken in a corner case where it actually turns out to be beneficial. I'm honestly interested - would we have this discussion, if the power was "When you play a weapon, banish it" (your Eryness example, but using 'when' instead of 'if'); or would you argue that because you discarded/buried your weapon - you get to escape the location power?
EDIT: I don't get why we're bringing the "instead" clause into the conversation; as Vic has stated somewhere (Hawksignal activated!) - the thing that you do something else instead of never happens; so if Hot Springs was worded "When you would play a weapon, discard it instead" - that would mean you discard your weapon for exactly none effect at all.
3. Yes, burying a card to use a power on that card counts as playing that card...
Upon further reflection, I think I identified two important points that that put our views in opposition:
The wording is "When you play a weapon",... You buried the weapon in order to play it, so by the time that location power takes effect the Torch is already buried.
The first is the word 'when', which ambiguous and unfortunately unclear in terms of timing. It is clear you take it to mean 'after' (as in 'after you play a weapon'), whereas I've always more or less equated it with 'during'. I'm aware that 'during' as a term would be no less troublesome, but what I do know is that 'after' exists as an established wording. By argument of the contrary, I take the 'when' to mean, in terms of timing, "after 'before' and before 'after'" - which, in my understanding, coincides with the 'set aside' state of a played card, which awaits resolution of competing/simultaneous effects.
Second, and perhaps more important:
Since we have a rule that if we're told to recharge, discard, bury, banish, etc. cards they must come from our hand unless we're explicitly told otherwise, the location power then says "now go ahead and discard that weapon from your hand." Since it's no longer in our hand, that instruction is impossible and as such we ignore it.
The exact rule you refer to is
When you're told to...banish a card, that card must come from your hand, unless otherwise specified
In the meantime, Hot Springs says:
When you play a weapon, discard IT
Now, I would argue that the quoted rule is meant to cover instructions targeting indeterminate card(s) (such as "When you play a weapon, discard a weapon"), and that Hot Springs targets a particular, identified card ('it', THE weapon played) which qualifies as 'otherwise specified' and therefore the location power triggers regardless of where the weapon is *supposed* to end up.
Per the rule quoted, I would agree that if Hot Springs were to say "When you play a weapon, discard a weapon", there would be 2 possible outcomes:
- You play a weapon by reveling it, or you have another weapon in your hand: you have to chose and discard any 1 weapon from your hand
- You play your ONLY weapon by recharging, discarding, displaying, burying or banishing it: since no particular card and/or deck is specified by Hot Springs - you will have to discard a non-existant card from your hand, thereby ignoring the location's effect.
Sorry for the long-winded comment, but I do find the issue intriguing, and I hope for some official feedback on it. Cheers.
PS: As an aside, the Seoni thread got me thinking - if I were to play one of the S&S gun-shields (Armor cards) for their combat check power ("This counts as playing a weapon") and let's assume the cost is 'reveal' - would I discard them at Hot Springs? The very wording 'this COUNTS as playing a weapon" seem to indicate that I an not *actually* playing a weapon, and while it counts towards my number of weapons played on the check, I can see it going both way for purposes of the Hot Springs power.
Chief Technical Officer
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We have this FAQ:
"If I reveal a card for a power, and then something messes with my hand, is the revealed card in my hand? What if I display it? If I discard a card that could be recharged, but something messes with my discard pile before I can make the check to recharge it, is the card really in the discard pile?
Revealing and displaying happen instantly. Every other action waits until you know what action it really is.
Resolution: On page 10 of the rulebook, after the bulleted list of possible actions, add the following: "When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. While set aside, a card does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else."
As per the above, I would argue the buried Torch is "set aside"; then, the Location power kicks in and what we have, basically is:
Torch says: I must get buried
Hot Springs says: Nope, you got played. You must be discarded!As per the Golden Rule, Location trumps the weapon card.
This is correct.
EDIT: Alternatively, I can get behind Skizzers' statement that the two effects don't contradict each other and that we're not talking about location/weapon presedence. In this case, still, I'd argue that the Torch gets 'set aside' and then two things must simultaneously happen with it - it must be discarded, and it must be buried - and therefore it's player's choice in which order to execute them. My guess is, most players will chose to discard it....
Two different cards are telling you to do different things with the same card. That's *exactly* what the card precedence part of the Golden Rules is there to solve.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Apologies, but I think this distinction you make is very arbitrary. "If you play" is as much a trigger as "when you play", and I'd say it's actually identical in effect.
Right.
Early on, there was little distinction between "if" and "when." Later on, after it became more important to be very specific about when things happen, we refined this a bit. Generally, we want to use "when" when we care about the timing of a thing (when you play a card, when you fail a check). We want to use "if" when we care about the state of a thing (if the card is a spell, if the check has a trait). The line between the two is sometimes blurred, though—consider "if you discard cards as damage" and "when you discard cards as damage". In those cases, if something else has already locked down the timing, then we want to go with "if" (for example: "At the end of the encounter, if you discarded cards as damage..."). If nothing has locked down the timing, we probably want "when."
Which is to say that the difference between "if" and "when" is generally grammatical, not mechanical.
Which is to say that the difference between "if" and "when" is generally grammatical, not mechanical.
Thanks for the clarification. Whenever I see differences in wording like that, I tend to assume that's because they're supposed to mean different things (I've been accused of over-parsing on more than one occasion :P).
2.) Aghash makes you discard the top card of the blessings deck. Sandstorm triggers if it is discarded from the blessings deck. So, hit a sandstorm, get moved to B, discard another sandstorm and add a sandstorm back to the blessings deck. Creating this "chaining" event. What we DIDN'T catch on this, and we really should have, is that sandstorm moves you to a random location, not random OPEN location. So this situation is less likely to occur than we thought.
We had a similar problem last week, but had a slightly different timing issue...
If a character gets moved to Aghash's location by a Sandstorm, he triggers the discard and possibly another Sandstorm. So what happens now? Do we continue resolving the first Sandstorm (we were handling each character's random movement in turn order), or does that event become irrelevant in favor of the new Sandstorm?
Either way, it can create quite a chain when everyone rolls the same location and therefore everyone examines the same Aghash and loses blessing after blessing. Which is why we had the second Sandstorm cancel the first, despite figuring that was not the case.
Because once three Aghash were 'showing', our four-player group had not-terrible odds of burning the blessing deck without ever going again. Though we also decided to quell that by limiting the shuffle-in to the number of Sandstorms in the box, and not recycling them from the discard pile. So the odds probably weren't that bad. ;)