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Yes, Hillary won the first Presidential debate and made Trump look very unprepared (sniff), but the truth is that the only Vice-Presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will decide the outcome of the election. For that reason, and two others, that debate deserves it's own thread. I will go a step further and say that the Kaine/Pence debate will go down in history as one of the greatest debates of all time, and it will be studied by historians for centuries. You may proceed with the commentary...
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Haha....*snooze*...
Yeah I smell a snooze fest coming. God help us.
I bet Pence'll give some good red meat to the Right, and a few good scary pull quotes about life beginning at Immaculate Conception to the Left.
I can't imagine Kaine saying anything to scare or inspire anyone...
Tim Kaine is an amazing, inspiring speaker. Mike Pence is your standard, Right Wing politician. He knows how to dance around issues like abortion and gay marriage, when in fact he is opposed to both. I hope that Kaine does half the debate in Spanish, to once again show off that he actually knows how to speak it fluently.
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Everytime a tumbleweed blows by, Clint Eastwood gets a percentage.
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Yes, Hillary won the first Presidential debate and made Trump look very unprepared (sniff), but the truth is that the only Vice-Presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will decide the outcome of the election. For that reason, and two others, that debate deserves it's own thread. I will go a step further and say that the Kaine/Pence debate will go down in history as one of the greatest debates of all time, and it will be studied by historians for centuries. You may proceed with the commentary...
OK, no offense intended, but what the hell are you smoking? And where can the rest of us get some, cause it sounds like an amazing intoxicant.
Also, the debate is next Tuesday. Clearly you are excited, but couldn't this thread have waited until Monday?
I bet Pence'll give some good red meat to the Right, and a few good scary pull quotes about life beginning at Immaculate Conception to the Left.
If Pence believes that for U.S. children, life begins at Immaculate Conception, then he is ignorant of both biological reproduction and (Catholic) religious doctrine. Unless this was intended as humor, in which case, I thought I heard a whoosh overhead.
Pill,
So no on the tumbleweed joke?
Yes, Hillary won the first Presidential debate and made Trump look very unprepared (sniff), but the truth is that the only Vice-Presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will decide the outcome of the election. For that reason, and two others, that debate deserves it's own thread. I will go a step further and say that the Kaine/Pence debate will go down in history as one of the greatest debates of all time, and it will be studied by historians for centuries. You may proceed with the commentary...OK, no offense intended, but what the hell are you smoking? And where can the rest of us get some, cause it sounds like an amazing intoxicant.
Also, the debate is next Tuesday. Clearly you are excited, but couldn't this thread have waited until Monday?
I bet Pence'll give some good red meat to the Right, and a few good scary pull quotes about life beginning at Immaculate Conception to the Left.If Pence believes that for U.S. children, life begins at Immaculate Conception, then he is ignorant of both biological reproduction and (Catholic) religious doctrine. Unless this was intended as humor, in which case, I thought I heard a whoosh overhead.
The Poe's is strong with this one.
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We're getting HYPED, Pillbug! WOOOOO!
Pill,
So no on the tumbleweed joke?
Nope, rolling ones on my humor checks. It just makes me think of Marty Robbins.
The Poe's is strong with this one.
I'm still woozy from WIS damage after repeated cuts from Trump's Razor. I knew I shoulda popped for a Doc Wagon contract.
Also, I'm kinda surprised the 7 Hundred Faces of Dr. Yesterday hasn't made some kind of Edgar Poe political alias yet.
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Politics are unworthy of my alias mojo.
I mentioned it in the other thread, but if Pence outperforms Trump I could see Trump shooting his campaign in the foot over it.
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I honestly can't wait for the debate. This has been my all-time favorite election so far, not gonna lie. Who am I gonna vote for? Who knows? A lot of good choices this year. One thing's for sure: This upcoming debate alone may decide my vote this November.
Looking forward to it!
I disagree.
I for one can't wait for 2020, we're making a comeback!
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Mustn't. make. Merkin Party. alias...
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I disagree.
You can't tell me what to think! You're not my real dad!
Are you sure about that?
*is his own father* Also I think 2020, we'll get Second Darkness Hardcover.
Maybe.
The salt is strong in this thread. Vive le Salty Humor!
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*stomps through the thread, following the scent trail of the kobold that called on him*
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!
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Oh, no, a wordfinder!
*peeeeeeers at the kobold with its huge eye, head tilted to the side, and a slow, rumbling is heard from its throat*
*seems to wait for something*
Yes, Hillary won the first Presidential debate and made Trump look very unprepared (sniff), but the truth is that the only Vice-Presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will decide the outcome of the election. For that reason, and two others, that debate deserves it's own thread. I will go a step further and say that the Kaine/Pence debate will go down in history as one of the greatest debates of all time, and it will be studied by historians for centuries. You may proceed with the commentary...
Which past presidential election do you feel the vice presidential debate was the deciding event in the outcome?
Honestly, there's evidence that VP selection basically has zero effect on the electoral outcome of the election, which means the debate has an even smaller effect.
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Yes, Hillary won the first Presidential debate and made Trump look very unprepared (sniff), but the truth is that the only Vice-Presidential debate between Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will decide the outcome of the election. For that reason, and two others, that debate deserves it's own thread. I will go a step further and say that the Kaine/Pence debate will go down in history as one of the greatest debates of all time, and it will be studied by historians for centuries. You may proceed with the commentary...Which past presidential election do you feel the vice presidential debate was the deciding event in the outcome?
Honestly, there's evidence that VP selection basically has zero effect on the electoral outcome of the election, which means the debate has an even smaller effect.
VP nominations do occasionally tank a presidential ticket (see Thomas Eagleton 1972) but I agree that the VP debates themselves are largely irrelevant.
Eagleton was embarassing, but the dems were so disorganized and reeling from LBJ and the war, it was doubtful McGovern would have won if the perfect running mate had been found.
McGovern was having trouble uniting Democrats, he was seen as having betrayed his former running mate, and he was up against Nixon, one of the most skilled political movers this nation has ever seen. There was a lot going on there.
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Even without Eagleton, McGovern would have been smashed. My master would have seen to that.
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There might be some Republican voters who absolutely hate Trump but are assuming (maybe correctly?) that Pence will be the one actually making the policy that Trump signs off on. So a good performance from Pence could help in that regard. Kaine's performance will pretty much do nothing for Hillary, either negatively or positively. And if Pence does poorly its likely only to cause some republicans voters to stay at home...It won't send any Republicans Hillary's way.
PS I almost wrote Khaine instead of Kaine...which would be a much different VP Debate...
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Everytime a tumbleweed blows by, Clint Eastwood gets a percentage.
Good for him, buying empty chairs to argue with can get expensive.
Scythia,
I think the empty chairs are revolving.
Also the only way this debate become relevant is if Pence and Kaine both agree to join forces to over throw Hillary and run the country on a Kaine/Pence Ticket.
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If the chairs develop language skills and petition for voting rights, burn them, burn them all.
...
Oh, revolving, my bad. :)
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Clint Eastwood, summoner, with furniture-based eidolons would be a pretty good character for Edlund's new The Tick show.
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If you watch the Veep debate tomorrow, keep this in mind when Pence is speaking.
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I think this would be better kept in mind during the debate instead.
There's a difference between being a representative and being a governor.
As a representative, you push for your special interests.
As a governor, you do what's best for your state.
Pence got the endorsement from the much-liked former Republican governor Mitch Daniels (now president of Purdue) basically with the promise that he wouldn't pursue a social agenda. Mitch Daniels was liked because he focused almost exclusively on the economy and government efficiency. He gave no f@*@s about social issues, and it was implied that Pence, as the successor of Daniels, would set aside the social dogmas that he was known for and govern a state that was on a very good path, economically, after Mitch Daniels' two terms.
He didn't do that.
From day one, Pence didn't govern--he played national GOP politics. Whatever the big firey debate of the day was among the national GOP, he grabbed ahold of it and pretended to be its conservative crusader, even if it had absolutely zero relevance to the state of Indiana. He spent time, money, and resources on championing issues that Hoosiers didn't care about or didn't support, because he wanted to pander to the National GOP's ultra conservative base for his future career. Essentially, he was using Indiana as a stepping stone. He never cared about being governor. He always had higher aspirations, and the governorship was a stepping stone to a higher federal office. Most Hoosiers, left or right on the political spectrum, espouse this opinion about him.
As I said before, Mitch Daniels literally gave no f#@&s about social issues. Indiana is generally a conservative state, but it's never been a state particularly hung up on social issues, and it's never been a state that follows the national GOP's social platform. Indiana has, for as long as I've been alive, been a business Republican state--politicians like the Bushes, Mitt Romney, etc. We voted Obama into office, and prior to Mitch Daniels in 2005, we had 16 straight years of Democratic governorship. Indianapolis, the capital and largest city in the state, routinely switched between Republican and Democrat mayors, and it has managed to have long-term plans and continue its momentum regardless of which party is in office.
So Pence, with his national conservative GOP politics, has been an aberration that has directly harmed Indiana's image and its pocket book.
In the three years since Pence took office, he:
Pushed through legislation making harsher penalties for drug crimes against the protests of numerous major legal organizations including the Indiana Bar Association, as well as most Hoosiers
Inherited a phenomenal state balance sheet from Mitch Daniels and used it as an excuse to push tax cuts so extreme (would have caused a tremendous deficit) that the Republican-controlled Congress shut him down
Tried and failed to amend the Indiana constitution to ban gay marriage, despite widespread polling that showed that Hoosiers didn't support it, and despite the vociferous condemnation of virtually every major business in the state
Since his gay marriage amendment failed, he literally, as payback (not exaggerating, the signing ceremony was invite only, no media was allowed or invited, but someone leaked a picture that showed Pence surrounded by well-known anti-LGBT extremists), came back with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which was a genuine political circus. It humiliated Indiana on the national stage, directly harmed Indianapolis, and was met with, perhaps, the fiercest backlash by the people of any state in the Union. The extraordinary protests of Hoosiers and businesses allowed the state GOP leaders to basically coerce--to his visible chagrin--Pence to amend the law and "fix it" (this was actually the front page of the biggest newspaper in Indiana).
The RFRA was such a debacle that Pence ended up hiring an expensive out-of-state public relations firm to heal Indiana's national image. He couldn't answer why he chose an out-of-state firm. He couldn't answer why he chose such an expensive firm, when there are many firms in Indiana that could have done the job. It was eventually canceled, and was yet another waste of taxpayer money. To date, the RFRA has cost Indianapolis (a city that fought against it, changed the official tourism website to rainbow colors, and hung a huge rainbow banner at the airport) $60 million, and the total cost--to the economy and reputation--to the rest of the state is unknown.
During the gay marriage supreme court fight, he literally sent the Indiana attorney general to other states to advise them on how to craft their laws and fight gay marriage nationally. He did this on the taxpayer dollar. He continued to spend taxpayer money fighting gay marriage in the courts and with lawsuits despite, at the time, everyone knowing what the Supreme Court decision was going to be. It was basically a political stand by Pence; an expensive political stand that Hoosiers didn't support.
He fought to pass a law preventing cities from passing their own minimum wage statutes. Is this "small government"?
He has acted like a strongman (think Turkey's Erdoğan), doing everything in his power to make Glenda Ritz, the state superintendent and an elected official, quit her job, and barring that, stripping her of the power given to her by the Indiana constitute and the Hoosiers that elected her through backroom deals, conspiracy, and highly technical legal challenges. Just Google "Mike Pence Glenda Ritz." You could write a thesis on it.
Everyone, literally everyone, was on board for receiving a huge federal grant for preschool funding. The Indiana Department of Education was literally in the final stages of the application process--and the federal government was happy with Indiana and going to give us an especially large chunk of money--when Pence came in and shut it down for no reason because accepting money from the feds became politically untenable among the national GOP tea partier crowd. And, of course, you can't be elected president--Pence's eyes were always on the future--without support from the GOP's far right base. After shutting down the process, he has recently been opining that it would be a good idea to get federal money to fund preschools... A year after he shit all over the Dept of Education's proposal to do just that.
The HIV epidemic in southern Indiana is out of control and among the worst in the country. Of course, we could provide free needles for heroin addicts like has been done in many states to curb HIV problems, but that is politically repugnant to Mike Pence. He also managed to get the Planned Parenthoods in that part of the state shut down, eliminating the opportunity for poor people to get tested. The HIV epidemic, which never had to be an epidemic, continues, and Pence gets to push the problem on our future governor as he goes to join Trump on the national stage.
Speaking of Planned Parenthood, Pence is highly proud of his accomplishment at passing the single most restrictive abortion law since Roe vs Wade. The law, HEA 1337 is far stricter than anything even in the Deep South and is almost certainly unconstitutional. He knows that it's probably unconstitutional. Nevertheless, Indiana taxpayers will spend millions of dollars for our attorney general to fight the law all the way to the Supreme Court, just so Pence could make his political statement.
He literally tried to make a state-run news agency that he would then give exclusive interviews and access to. I don't even know if that's legal, but he tried to do it and was promptly crucified by the media and even his own party.
He asserted authority to ban Syrian refugees from being settled in Indiana. He has no authority. No governor has. He knew that, but he was planning to be a GOP presidential candidate, and he needed to show that he was strong and anti-Muslim refugee to appease the national GOP base. He took leadership role in this discriminatory crusade, appearing on national TV to preach his ignorance. This particular event managed to throw multiple refugee settlement organizations into disarray--which, by the way, actually include the Catholic Church of Indiana (the arch bishop of Indianapolis publicly criticized the governor)--and several Syrian refugees which were well into the process of moving to Indiana had to be relocated to another state. Pence didn't back down until the courts affirmed that his order was unconstitutional.
He shut down a highly successful energy efficiency program--one of the first in the nation, making Indiana a trailblazer--initiated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission with the support of previous governor Mitch Daniels. He did this for no good reason, other than to signal to his far-right constituents that he was fighting against Obama's evil despotic EPA.
This is all just in his three years in office. He is reviled across the state, and especially so in Indianapolis. There is (was--now that he's the VP nominee, he can no longer be governor) a bipartisan Pence Must Go campaign to get rid of him, and there are literally billboards and yard signs plastered all over the city. Pence is, by virtually all objective measures, one of the worst governors in recent Indiana history, at least in terms of working for the benefit of the state. He has basically focused on far-right Christian social conservative interests to the clear detriment of all else, most importantly the current and future well-being of the state's reputation and economy.
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I think this would be better kept in mind during the debate instead.
** spoiler omitted **...
F#*@.
I didn't know much about him other than his opposition to gay rights but seriously,
Backpfeifengesicht
......... Nope nope nope............
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Me either, Rysky. I only became aware of him during RFRA. And as bad as that is, that was apparently only the surface.
And while VP debates usually don't matter, I'd say they do this time for two reasons.
1. Both candidates are old. If Clinton wins, she will be the second-oldest person to hold the office. If Trump wins, then he will be the oldest. It is entirely possible, though unlikely, that whoever wins could die of old age or suffer some medical malady that makes them incapable of running the country. Therefore, it matters who their Veep is.
2. If the Kasich story is true, then it absolutely matters what Pence's politics are. The only thing worse than President Trump would be Shadow President Pence, and the only thing worse than that would be President Pence.
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......... Nope nope nope............
This is for you, in case you want to bookmark it for later use.
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......... Nope nope nope............This is for you, in case you want to bookmark it for later use.
I just read that in 2008, the Palin/Biden debate got higher viewership than any of the McCain/Obama debates. I don't think that is going to be the case today, but it's an interesting tidbit.
people were hot for Palin, back in the day.
Assume McCain would have won. Then assume Palin became president. Would there still be a USA today?