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Also, just because someone has ordered an animal to attack you, does not mean the animal is hostile to you. (For that matter, in general, the fact that someone is attacking you does not mean they are hostile, they just may be under orders to attack anyone who insists on going down that hallway...) Unless you are specifically targeting it, the knight's horse probably isn't hostile to you. (And depending on how much he likes using spurs, may actually like you better than it likes him.)
So it you wild empathy the enemies animal companion, it will probably try to attack someone else in your party if ordered to attack, and it would certainly make an order to get it to attack you much harder. (Look, I like you, I really do, but the boos says I gotta eat you, and he'd the one that feeds me, you know?) I would probably also have it pull it's blows and attempt non lethal strikes. (See boss, I am eating him... non, nom, nom... )
You are certainly correct here. Though if the mount is Helpful or friendly, then you could try diplomacy on the mounted character and the mount my even roll to assist.
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I consider "i handle animal to command your pet" to be a core rule book to the head offense from a player* and a "I'll be at the paint and take" offense from a DM.
* don't worry the cover fell o.. i mean i would never actually do that. Again...
Would Flutter not approve of the non-violent treatment of enemy animal companions? From an IC standpoint, the character I do this on very much prefers not to hurt animals and takes good care of his own companion. In any scenario where it's possible, I've taken enemy mounts back to safety rather than allowing the party to harm them or letting them run off and get eaten.
Still, it's table variation. I get that. I just like the options it brings up for resolution.
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Would Flutter not approve of the non-violent treatment of enemy animal companions? From an IC standpoint, the character I do this on very much prefers not to hurt animals and takes good care of his own companion. In any scenario where it's possible, I've taken enemy mounts back to safety rather than allowing the party to harm them or letting them run off and get eaten.
As a player , Flutters wild empathy ability, fast empathy feat to make wild empathy usable and a good chunk of her WBL to get her wild empathy up to +25 would be pretty useless if handle animal did the same thing faster better and without a feat.
Which is why you don't take shortcuts through the raw.
Still, it's table variation. I get that. I just like the options it brings up for resolution.
I don't think that should be variation i think that one is bad enough for a flat no.
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I consider "i handle animal to command your pet" to be a core rule book to the head offense from a player* and a "I'll be at the paint and take" offense from a DM.
* don't worry the cover fell o.. i mean i would never actually do that. Again...
If the animal is friendly, then sure, I'd allow handle animal on a PC pet.
I've even seen players attempt handle animal checks when the PC, who's pet it is, becomes unconscious.
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As a player , Flutters wild empathy ability, fast empathy feat to make wild empathy usable and a good chunk of her WBL to get her wild empathy up to +25 would be pretty useless if handle animal did the same thing faster better and without a feat.
What about characters using speak with animals? Do they automatically fail?
I think the animal rules are VERY open to table variation, largely because they have so many gaping holes in them. Dogs DO sit when commanded to by people other than their master. Especially if told to by somebody they know and like.
Mechanically, there are lots of character types that need SOME way to interact and influence animals that isn't wild empathy. Witches with feral speech, clerics with the animal domain, animal speaker bards, etc.
Clearly flutter should excel. But others should be able to play the same game in a different way. It shouldn't be wild empathy or nothing.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I consider "i handle animal to command your pet" to be a core rule book to the head offense from a player* and a "I'll be at the paint and take" offense from a DM.
* don't worry the cover fell o.. i mean i would never actually do that. Again...
I had a scenario where the PCs are sneaking by an enemy guard post, and the enemy has guard dogs and soldiers stationed there. Not animal companion, just guard dogs. The guard ordered the dogs to attack. Rolled a 9. One of the PCs,basically said. "I do what he was trying to do, but better" and rolled a 15.
This isn't a case where the guard was the trainer (he didn't even conceivably have a high enough skill to make that plausible.) So I gave the PC a -2 penalty based on "unfamiliar dog" but let it work.
If you could not command unfamiliar animals, then any scenario where you have to command a team of animals you find in the scenario would not work (For example, the one where you have to drive a team of sled dogs, or any of them where it says "It is a handle animal check to sneak past the guard animals.")
But "talking down the enemies horse" is practically a trope in some fiction.
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What about characters using speak with animals? Do they automatically fail?
To do what?
Get a bird to tell them where the orcs are? No
Tell the druids pet to attack the druid? Provided he's not comiting some serious Local 704 violations yeah, that failboats. The ability to talk to someone isn't the ability to command them. I can't tell a mook to turn around and attack their boss just because they speak common.
I think the animal rules are VERY open to table variation, largely because they have so many gaping holes in them. Dogs DO sit when commanded to by people other than their master. Especially if told to by somebody they know and like.
I'm not talking about animals that know someone else and don't particularly dislike you, I'm talking about a druids pet, guard dog, wild animals, paladins horse etc.
Clearly flutter should excel. But others should be able to play the same game in a different way. It shouldn't be wild empathy or nothing.
Charm animal, dominate animal, charm monster, they all work. You could also try to feed it till it likes you.
An animal or other critter needs to like you before it's going to listen to you.
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What about characters using speak with animals? Do they automatically fail?
To do what?
Get a bird to tell them where the orcs are? No
Tell the druids pet to attack the druid? Provided he's not comiting some serious Local 704 violations yeah, that failboats.
There are mechanical options over and above charm person that allow a character the opportunity to try and convince a henchman to turn on their boss. Subject to wild Table Variation but sometimes intimidate, bluff, diplomacy can work. Sometimes even in combat.
Why shouldn't there be mechanical options to do the same with henchcritters?
You say that I can get a bird to tell me where the orcs are. But surely there should be a roll of some kind for that. By RAW it is NOT diplomacy and NOT handle animal.
As always, circumstances matter a LOT. I'd never let somebody handle animal a druids animal companion to attack the druid. I MIGHT allow it to get the animal to stand down (ESPECIALLY if I was desperately trying to avoid killing characters and the player tried this as a Hail Mary. Much less likely to if the player did this as a regular thing).
And overriding some random guard who doesn't even have handle animal in his stat block ordering around a guard dog that he bought? Yeah, I'd give that a chance
An animal or other critter needs to like you before it's going to listen to you.
Not always true. A trained dog or horse will follow orders from somebody other than its master. Heck, a strong argument can be made that animals are more responsive to somebody they FEAR than somebody they LIKE (I strongly suspect that you hate the way some animals are trained as much as I do but that doesn't mean the methods are ineffective)
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There are mechanical options over and above charm person that allow a character the opportunity to try and convince a henchman to turn on their boss. Subject to wild Table Variation but sometimes intimidate, bluff, diplomacy can work. Sometimes even in combat.
They don't work as a DC 10 standard action, and require some bad boss behavior.
Why shouldn't there be mechanical options to do the same with henchcritters?
There is one, it's wild empathy. This special ability exists and it works this way pretty strongly implies that you need to use that special ability to do that thing, otherwise that special ability wouldn't exist.
You say that I can get a bird to tell me where the orcs are. But surely there should be a roll of some kind for that. By RAW it is NOT diplomacy and NOT handle animal.
I don't see the point for a roll, especially if the party has food.
You can get a critter to talk to you is the entire point of speak with animals. exactly what it does for you and how you get it to do a little more is a gray area: either diplomacy or handle animal work.
As always, circumstances matter a LOT. I'd never let somebody handle animal a druids animal companion to attack the druid. I MIGHT allow it to get the animal to stand down (ESPECIALLY if I was desperately trying to avoid killing characters and the player tried this as a Hail Mary. Much less likely to if the player did this as a regular thing).
Rules lawyering ex machina in extremis is fine.
And overriding some random guard who doesn't even have handle animal in his stat block ordering around a guard dog that he bought? Yeah, I'd give that a chance
With no handle animal sure.
My neighbors dog listens to me more than the neighbor. I need a little longer with a police dog or a coyote. (in the case of the coyote's is usually them making handle human checks to get their point across. "Hey , you. With the vest. Get over here and stop traffic for me)
Not always true. A trained dog or horse will follow orders from somebody other than its master.
Depends on the command, and thats the problem with the handle animal loophole. I can probably get a police dog to come or sit (again-that was a fun 3 am meeting in the port authority) I DEFINITELY can't get it to attack the cop but by the handle animal rules they should be the same thing.
It's not written but i think it's pretty much assumed that an animal has to be at least indifferent towards you before accepting your commands, and as an NPC the animal is still a Character. It still has its own desires and motivations. Handle animal isn't controling a computer. The animal still has free will and a dc 10 doesn't override that.
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It's not written but i think it's pretty much assumed that an animal has to be at least indifferent towards you before accepting your commands, and as an NPC the animal is still a Character.
Wild Empathy cites Diplomacy, and the Diplomacy rules indicate that you can't ask a creature to do something unless their attitude is at least indifferent; so although it is not clearly written under Handle Animal, it is implied.
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Why shouldn't there be mechanical options to do the same with henchcritters?There is one, it's wild empathy. This special ability exists and it works this way pretty strongly implies that you need to use that special ability to do that thing, otherwise that special ability wouldn't exist.
This is where I guess we agree to disagree. Wild Empathy is one way, not the only way. Saying it is the only way seems about as wrong to me as claiming that only characters with an animal companion or familiar can have a combat pet.
Wild empathy is useful and valuable in that it is "free", far less subject to table variation and has good support. I'd never expect to be able to build Flutter with just speak with animals and diplomacy/handle animal. But its not the only game in town
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I consider "i handle animal to command your pet" to be a core rule book to the head offense from a player* and a "I'll be at the paint and take" offense from a DM.
Does your pet have any tricks trained? If so, it is a trained animal, so I think handle animal should apply.
If you really don't want others giving your pet any commands, could do what the police do with their dogs, and issue all commands in a locally uncommon language. I bet the druids use Druidic to ensure their pets don't follow orders from others.
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I consider "i handle animal to command your pet" to be a core rule book to the head offense from a player* and a "I'll be at the paint and take" offense from a DM.Does your pet have any tricks trained? If so, it is a trained animal, so I think handle animal should apply.
No.
Not just no, but
"hell no" no
"I am leaving your table" no
"that is a level of overly legalistic rules lawyering I cannot condone, I'm out" no.
It is NOT a standard action DC 10 handle animal check to tell a trained animal, much less a bonded companion, to attack their owner. That has not been the glaring weakness in the pet classes for 15 years between the release of third edition and the release of the animal archive and it's exclusive trick. Not to mention it has not been the solution to every animal encounter, ever, to get a rank in handle animal and command the animal to attack it's compatriots.
An animal need to have a reason to listen to you.
It is still a character: not an automoton. Not a machine. Not a computer program stat block: a character.
If you really don't want others giving your pet any commands, could do what the police do with their dogs, and issue all commands in a locally uncommon language. I bet the druids use Druidic to ensure their pets don't follow orders from others.
This is beyond the scope of PFS.
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It is NOT a standard action DC 10 handle animal check to tell a trained animal, much less a bonded companion, to attack their owner.
Ah, that's where the strong reaction is coming from. No, I'm just saying that Handle Animal applies to Trained Animals and Trained Animal Companions. I was not saying that Handle Animal would allow you to get animals to turn on their masters.
I do think, that you could attempt handle animal checks on a Companion animal, and in turn, get the animal to at least consider doing any of the tricks it has been trained in. Even if attack is a trained trick, getting a creature to attack friendlies would probably be outside the scope of handle animal (unless the animal has been secretly looking for any excuse to turn on it's friends...).
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(unless the animal has been secretly looking for any excuse to turn on it's friends...).
And lets fact it, if the companion is a cat, it just KNOWS that you haven't been giving it enough attention, you barely feed it, you've been ignoring it for weeks now.
:-)
Yes, I live with cats. How can you tell?