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Wouldn't that be "spelunker"?
I checked the bylaws, and it looks like we're allowed to call them multiple things. I personally prefer the term "crazy", but that may just be my claustrophobia talking.
There was a perfectly good, unique word, and you just had to slap an 'r' onto the end of the word you're in. =(
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If you take it as non-exclusive, then it's pretty common. I'd identify as gamer (meaning Table Top, not video, while knowing full well that others use the same term with a different meaning), fantasy/sf fan, climber, and caver, along with a bunch of other things that don't quite reach the same level of focus.
Speaking for myself only:
I was an actor in high school, as well as a director, but not a producer or dancer. I was a singer, but not a drummer. I was a runner (and specifically a miler; in college I became a marathoner and a steeplechaser) but not a sprinter, and I only tried being a discus thrower, a hurdler, and a high jumper once.
In college, I dated a caver and a rafter, but I couldn't get into those. On the other hand, I found being a hiker and (rock) climber quite fun. I wasn't bad as a skier, but it was very expensive, and I've never really had interest in being a skater, either roller or ice.
I was too far from the ocean to be a surfer or a boater, but I was a fencer for a while in college, and I thought about becoming a swimmer, but I didn't have time because being a debater and a gamer took up too much of my free time. Indeed, I even had to stop being a runner.
Now, I'm a pretty good brewer, and I'm thinking about becoming a wine-maker, but I think being a distiller would require too much equipment. And I'm not as young as I used to be, and I don't think I have the manual dexterity to be a good conjurer, despite the fact that I love stage magic. I will say, though, that I think I'm becoming a pretty good tai chi player.
Now, of course, all of those are hobbies; I don't get paid for any of those. (Well, a local community college pays me a pittance as a tai chi instructor, I guess.) I get paid to be a teacher, a researcher, a scholar, an administrator, and sometimes a manager. Professionally, I'm still a writer, an editor, and a voracious reader, but I've never been any good as a painter or an illustrator.
... and in that list, you find "gamer" to be the odd term?
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As far as I can reply to the OP about whether or not people respond negatively towards the term itself, it depends on the person. I am rapidly becoming jaded towards many of these concepts as much of my personal experiences I personally find ludicrous. For example, big uproar in my area because someone got upset about the little image used to represent gendered restrooms. "What all girls have to wear skirts or dresses to use the restroom!" or someone throwing a temper tantrum because my half-orc hates dwarfs, therefore I must in real life hate "dwarves" It's my opinion that malicious intent is what makes terms hurtful, and as "gaming" because more of a gender-neutral hobby the term will be used less.
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I'm not involved in a lot of these hobby communities, so I don't personally know their dynamics.
But out of all of them, "gamer" is weird because of the high degree of gatekeeping and identity politics. Again, I don't know the specific social dynamics of every other group that ends in "-er", but gamers are infamous for evaluating whether someone is a "real" gamer or not, and determining who is "allowed" to call themselves a gamer. And that evaluation often has a lot to do with 1) accumulated knowledge of the hobby (rather than just DOING the thing), and/or 2) gender. Certainly sexist interactions occur everywhere there are people, but I've never heard anyone be accused of being a "fake hiker girl".
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There is this weird argument here saying "well, you don't call them gamer boys." Well, of course, you don't, for the exact reason you don't call them female nurses. We logically apply observations and patterns to things, both names and people. I say mailman as a neutral gendered term unless I want to clearly specify that the mailman is a girl. I say nurse when referring to nurses unless I specifically want to mention that the nurse is male. Why don't I say female nurse or boy mailman? Because it is already assumed until observed differently. Professions of equal male to female ratios do not have these issues or already have gender specific titles, like waiter and waitress, because there is not a clearly assumed gender. Now is the issue that there are some jobs that have more of one gender than another a problem? Maybe, Probably.Is it a discussion for another day? Certainly.
Rory Williams of Dr. Who refers to himself as a "nurse', not a male nurse, a nurse, period.
Whaaaat? Major communities that get large enough develop a 'culture' and an insider/outsider mentality? Say it ain't so.
Look at any hobby that gets big, but doesn't include everyone. There is a large difference between a casual sports watcher and a "sports fan", for example.
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Male here, couple of thoughts for whatever that's worth.
1) Not counting high school (when it was just 3 of us in a tiny K-12 school) I've never played with an RPG group that wasn't at least 50% female. None of them ever referred to themselves as "gamer girls" that I can recall, and a few of them really hated the term.
2) I've personally seen some pretty egregious gatekeeping in hobby circles--I suspect but cannot prove that that's a significant part of why there are so few women at my FLGS.
3) I've been playing RPGs, tabletop wargaming, & some video games for years but have never personally referred to myself as a "gamer," nor does most of my social circle. Many of us are actually put off by the holier-than-thou stuff that seems to surround the term. As a matter of personal preference I dislike the term and don't use it. If I'm in a situation where describing my hobbies has come up, I just go ahead and say "I play RPGs and mini wargaming", there's no prize for brevity & there are enough types of gaming that "Gamer Girl" is more a catch-phrase than a descriptor.
TL;DR My experiences with women in RPG-playing has included several who dislike the term so I default to avoiding it.
Whaaaat? Major communities that get large enough develop a 'culture' and an insider/outsider mentality? Say it ain't so.
Look at any hobby that gets big, but doesn't include everyone. There is a large difference between a casual sports watcher and a "sports fan", for example.
Yeah, I've never seen anyone throw the word "poser" (or even better, "poseur," as though pseudo-French makes it that much better) around in any other context than games. I've never heard cigar snobs, cinema snobs, music snobs, beer snobs, or wine snobs sneer about how so-and-so doesn't really understand the nuances but is only pretending.
Me, I'm a sarcasm snob. I fully expect that a large fraction of the readership of this thread will not fully understand the nuances of the previous paragraph. Posers.
I'm not involved in a lot of these hobby communities, so I don't personally know their dynamics.
But out of all of them, "gamer" is weird because of the high degree of gatekeeping and identity politics. Again, I don't know the specific social dynamics of every other group that ends in "-er", but gamers are infamous for evaluating whether someone is a "real" gamer or not, and determining who is "allowed" to call themselves a gamer. And that evaluation often has a lot to do with 1) accumulated knowledge of the hobby (rather than just DOING the thing), and/or 2) gender. Certainly sexist interactions occur everywhere there are people, but I've never heard anyone be accused of being a "fake hiker girl".
You're clearly not a sports fan. Every sports fan (at least of the 3 major US sports) has been grilled at one point to see if they're a "true" fan of the sport/team/player.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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You're clearly not a sports fan. Every sports fan (at least of the 3 major US sports) has been grilled at one point to see if they're a "true" fan of the sport/team/player.I'm not involved in a lot of these hobby communities, so I don't personally know their dynamics.
But out of all of them, "gamer" is weird because of the high degree of gatekeeping and identity politics. Again, I don't know the specific social dynamics of every other group that ends in "-er", but gamers are infamous for evaluating whether someone is a "real" gamer or not, and determining who is "allowed" to call themselves a gamer. And that evaluation often has a lot to do with 1) accumulated knowledge of the hobby (rather than just DOING the thing), and/or 2) gender. Certainly sexist interactions occur everywhere there are people, but I've never heard anyone be accused of being a "fake hiker girl".
Ironically, the division between sports fans and gamers is pretty thin:
-Both enjoy games (sports being technically games)-Both amass a deep knowledge of those game systems as well as huge amount of trivia
-Both have a reputation of sexism and female exclusion
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Whaaaat? Major communities that get large enough develop a 'culture' and an insider/outsider mentality? Say it ain't so.
Look at any hobby that gets big, but doesn't include everyone. There is a large difference between a casual sports watcher and a "sports fan", for example.
Yeah, I've never seen anyone throw the word "poser" (or even better, "poseur," as though pseudo-French makes it that much better) around in any other context than games. I've never heard cigar snobs, cinema snobs, music snobs, beer snobs, or wine snobs sneer about how so-and-so doesn't really understand the nuances but is only pretending.
Me, I'm a sarcasm snob. I fully expect that a large fraction of the readership of this thread will not fully understand the nuances of the previous paragraph. Posers.
Hmm, can you share the context of gamers being called poseurs? I have not heard that one. My experience was folks who appropriate in-groups but not actually belonging to them (in opinion).
There's definitely some prejudice against women [in caving], mostly in the standard assumptions that men are more likely to be experienced. No "fake caver girl" kind of thing that I know of.Does it really happen in the tabletop RPG world? The gatekeeping certainly, but again mostly in the of overeagerness to help the assumed inexperienced "girl" and awkward attempts to hit on them, not in claims they're only faking an interest.
I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't match what I've seen or even the claims I usually hear about sexism in PnPRPGs.
I'm a little confused about "gatekeeping"? My understanding of the word is that "gatekeeping" is something that can only be done deliberately. If Ted hasn't showered since the last papal election and insists on living on canned baked beans, he may drive people out of the group, out of the store, and out of the hobby.... but unless he's doing so with deliberate intent to keep people away, he's not "gatekeeping," he's being a jerk.
Similarly, if Bob wears X-rated tee shirts to the games and makes rude, suggestive jokes to any woman who sits at the same table with him, he's being a sexist pig (and arguably committing sexual harassment, depending upon the jurisdiction), but he's not probably not "gatekeeping."
Trying to decide if someone is a fake gamer is pretty blatantly gatekeeping; the article I just cited specifically talks about "any posers who get ousted by it," where, of course, "ousting" is the traditional role of the gatekeeper or bouncer at any bar. If you're screaming "Get back to the kitchen," you're pretty obviously gatekeeping. I'd argue you're doing the same even if you're the one that won't play with the "fake gamers."
But that's still not the same as simply being a thoughtless and oblivious jerk. Intention matters.
Hmm, can you share the context of gamers being called poseurs? I have not heard that one. My experience was folks who appropriate in-groups but not actually belonging to them (in opinion).Whaaaat? Major communities that get large enough develop a 'culture' and an insider/outsider mentality? Say it ain't so.
Look at any hobby that gets big, but doesn't include everyone. There is a large difference between a casual sports watcher and a "sports fan", for example.
Yeah, I've never seen anyone throw the word "poser" (or even better, "poseur," as though pseudo-French makes it that much better) around in any other context than games. I've never heard cigar snobs, cinema snobs, music snobs, beer snobs, or wine snobs sneer about how so-and-so doesn't really understand the nuances but is only pretending.
Me, I'm a sarcasm snob. I fully expect that a large fraction of the readership of this thread will not fully understand the nuances of the previous paragraph. Posers.
"Being one of the oldest and easiest subsets of geek culture to enter, gaming has become a focus point for those seeking to adopt this new image and it can be hard to pick out the posers from the true dweebs. It’s not hard to find a significant other who claims to be interested in your favourite past-time, but there are some sure-fire signs that they’re doing it for the prestige rather than for the love of the game.
"There are plenty more reasons why someone would pretend to be more interested in games than they actually are (maybe they just desperately want to share an interest with you), but it can be pretty frustrating to date someone who’s only acting the part when you thought you’d found a perfect match. While the following list isn’t a hard and fast guide to sussing out a fake gamer, it should help you decipher whether or not your sweetheart is in fact a gaming enthusiast or just posturing; apologies in advance to any posers who get ousted by it."
(ETA: formatting adjusted to make clear that the entire passage is a quotation, not my own words or thoughts.)
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@Orfamay, what's with the Investopedia link?
Cut/paste error, now corrected.
I'm a little confused about "gatekeeping"? My understanding of the word is that "gatekeeping" is something that can only be done deliberately. [...] Intention matters.
There's definitely some prejudice against women [in caving], mostly in the standard assumptions that men are more likely to be experienced. No "fake caver girl" kind of thing that I know of.Does it really happen in the tabletop RPG world? The gatekeeping certainly, but again mostly in the of overeagerness to help the assumed inexperienced "girl" and awkward attempts to hit on them, not in claims they're only faking an interest.
I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't match what I've seen or even the claims I usually hear about sexism in PnPRPGs.Well, the most common complaints I've seen - the patronizing attempts to help and the creepy attempts at flirting - are done deliberately, if not with the intent of driving them away. So not quite the same as "being smelly". And both tend to function to drive women away.
Might be stretching the definition, but has the same practical effect.
Shrug. I disagree. As I said, intention matters.
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I'm a little confused about "gatekeeping"? My understanding of the word is that "gatekeeping" is something that can only be done deliberately. [...] Intention matters.
There's definitely some prejudice against women [in caving], mostly in the standard assumptions that men are more likely to be experienced. No "fake caver girl" kind of thing that I know of.Does it really happen in the tabletop RPG world? The gatekeeping certainly, but again mostly in the of overeagerness to help the assumed inexperienced "girl" and awkward attempts to hit on them, not in claims they're only faking an interest.
I could be wrong about that, but it doesn't match what I've seen or even the claims I usually hear about sexism in PnPRPGs.Well, the most common complaints I've seen - the patronizing attempts to help and the creepy attempts at flirting - are done deliberately, if not with the intent of driving them away. So not quite the same as "being smelly". And both tend to function to drive women away.
Might be stretching the definition, but has the same practical effect.
Shrug. I disagree. As I said, intention matters.
In an astounding twist of fate, I agree with Orfamay Quest here. Intention is important as far as distinguishing between the usual sort of mansplaining and sexual harassment that occurs in any group and the deliberate, aggressive exclusion that gatekeeping involves. Gatekeeping can be identity policing (OF linked an article called "The Problem With Fake Geek Girls" for Pete's sake), but it can also be literal physical exclusion. I've read about a woman who was prevented from entering a section of a game store by a man physically standing in the way and grilling her on her knowledge of D&D terminology. My partner's old high school boyfriend had a "boy's night out" where they would play D&D.
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You know, I was kind of hoping to just hear from those this label could conceivably be applied to on this one. Not sure we need to hear from our "gamer dudes" about what they think of the term and why they think they should or shouldn't use it on other people. :P
I'd never use it, and would find it rather offensive as a label. That might in part be to do with the US/UK difference in how acceptable it is to call an adult woman a "girl", plus "gamer" in most people's minds means computer games.
If I have to use a descriptor, I'm a roleplayer.
I would say however the "boy's night out" may not have been gatekeeping itself but instead may have been simply what the guys wanted to do on their solo night. Now if the girls wanted to play and couldn't because that's the only time the guys did play and wouldn't let them sure. But in the case of my wife she didn't want to for years so that was what my "guys night out" was.
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Re: gatekeeping, one (of many) examples I've encountered was having a stranger at Gen Con criticize me as "not really geeky" because I was knitting in the Starbucks line. I was wearing my Paizo shirt and staff badge at the time. No point to the comment other than to try to invalidate my credentials.
Re: "gamer girl," it makes me grit my teeth. If other women want to use it, though, I respect their choice.
I would say however the "boy's night out" may not have been gatekeeping itself but instead may have been simply what the guys wanted to do on their solo night.
I'd say the existence of a "boy's night out" is pretty blatantly gatekeeping; it doesn't matter whether the boys are playing games or gardening, if they don't let girls into their club. Even "I want some time away from you" is gatekeeping, although more understandable. That said, a lot of time "boy's night out" is shorthand for "none of our wives/girlfriends are into <activity> so that's what we'll do when we're all together," and that's a little different.
While I can see and agree with that in a way, would we see it different/call it the same thing in reverse. If my wife and her friends wanna go see "50 Shades Darker" when it comes out and call it "girls night out" is it still gatekeeping if not a single husband in the group would have wanted to go anyway?
So as a guy I have no idea what people want with this term. I have seen it used for gatekeeping just about as often as I have seen it used as a recruitment tool (for women). I know tons of women who despise the term, and roughly an equal number who actively embrace it. Personally, I try to avoid it because it seems othering, unless I know the person well enough to know they embrace it.
edit: I think it also has very different connotations if you are talking about video game communities or board game communities. I think it is seen more antagonistic and thus also more of a badge of pride by my video gaming friends than my board gaming ones.
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Hey there folks,
I've been following along and mostly just listening to the ladies' perspectives, and now I wanted to pop in with an additional question, inspired by this latest mention of "gatekeeping" and "guys' night".
I know there's at least a few MLP:FiM fans among you, so I'm curious if any of you ladies have any thoughts on the recent-ish episode in which Spike and Big Mac are revealed to have a "guys' night" during which they play "Ogres and Oubliettes".
I've got my own thoughts on the episode, but I'd like to hear what the ladies in this thread (or at least, the MLP fans among them) think of it. :)
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You know, I was kind of hoping to just hear from those this label could conceivably be applied to on this one. Not sure we need to hear from our "gamer dudes" about what they think of the term and why they think they should or shouldn't use it on other people. :P
I deliberately made the original post fully neutral about the term, in spite of my own opinions on the matter—though I've gotten the impression that this neutrality might have in turn alienated some people. I was hoping to avoid the generally inevitable stream of self-justifying posts on how the term isn't "offensive".
To be clear: This thread is not intended as an attack on those who refer to others as "gamer girls". It's intended solely to listen to how those "gamer girls" happen to feel about the term—positively, negatively, or ambivalently.
Y'know, I originally wasn't gonna post on this thread at all for precisely this reason. And I've barely commented (I think a whole one sentence) on the original question. What compelled me to post was the fact that I saw people deeply misunderstanding the reason why I, and many others, don't feel that this kind of term usage is acceptable for the most part.
In short, I responded to a post that did directly have to do with me, and have mostly continued to do so exclusively. Maybe I shouldn't have. I don't know. But I always feel like allowing something like that to stand unopposed is bad, even if I'm maybe not the perfect person to oppose it.
What I find annoying is the assumption that pretty much every word out of someone's mouth has to be micro analyzed to see if it's possible it might be offensive to someone, somewhere. I get it, you don't want to purposely be rude or nasty to people, cool. But for the love of Pete, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar and sometimes people only mean what they literally say and aren't doing hidden coded subtexts.
To reiterate my earlier point, this really isn't the issue. Yes, people usually don't mean anything offensive by a term like this. I'm sure many who use it have no intention to be offensive whatsoever, and many people don't get offended by it either.
But that's really not the point. There is ample evidence in Psychology research that the things you say and the way you say them effect how you think about those things. Constantly using a word that infantilizes and diminishes the accomplishment of women (and girl does that, it really does) actually makes you view them as more infantile and less accomplished.
It's not magic and it doesn't do so instantly or completely, but it reinforces such attitudes in both your own mind and that of those who listen to you and respect you. And that's bad. So people shouldn't do it.
I'm not involved in a lot of these hobby communities, so I don't personally know their dynamics.
But out of all of them, "gamer" is weird because of the high degree of gatekeeping and identity politics. Again, I don't know the specific social dynamics of every other group that ends in "-er", but gamers are infamous for evaluating whether someone is a "real" gamer or not, and determining who is "allowed" to call themselves a gamer. And that evaluation often has a lot to do with 1) accumulated knowledge of the hobby (rather than just DOING the thing), and/or 2) gender. Certainly sexist interactions occur everywhere there are people, but I've never heard anyone be accused of being a "fake hiker girl".
As others have noted, this absolutely happens in other communities. The terminology differs, and sexism specifically is more typical to those communities that have historically been predominately male...but all this sort of thing happens.
And all of it is inevitable to some degree. Not the sexism, but the gatekeeping. The idea of 'you must prove yourself to be a member of this group'. And, unless based on prejudices like gender, I'm not sure this is actually a bad thing per se.
I suspect (as a Psych student) this might actually have to do with the differences between friendship styles in men and women, actually. The idea of such behavior being based on this fact is just a theory, mind you, but there's a wealth of documentation of the difference between men and women's typical friendship styles.
See, men usually form friend groups based around some activity, while women form them based on emotional connection. Both regularly have both those things, mind you, but men start with the activity and then grow emotionally close to the people involved, while women start with the emotional connection and then find an activity.
Additionally, men are inclined to not allow new people into said friend group easily, giving them a bit of a hard time to start with, but are very tolerant of divergence from group norms once people have earned their place within the group, while women are much more accepting of new members, but also much less tolerant of divergence from the norm within the group, using peer pressure to ensure compliance with group norms.
Now, all these are purely statistical norms within our culture. It's debatable what causes them and certainly not true of every individual man and woman, but they're useful when talking about people in aggregate. About why something like gatekeeping might occur, for instance.
I can easily see this difference in style being the root of gatekeeping within any group that has historically been primarily male. That's probably a bad thing for a large cultural grouping rather than a personal friend group, and is certainly really bad when combined with prejudice of various sorts or when it leads to ugly behavior like hazing, but understanding the dynamic that causes it seems useful to me.
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Okay, that last bit went a bit off topic. Sorry. That just seemed interesting and useful theorizing to share.
While I can see and agree with that in a way, would we see it different/call it the same thing in reverse. If my wife and her friends wanna go see "50 Shades Darker" when it comes out and call it "girls night out" is it still gatekeeping if not a single husband in the group would have wanted to go anyway?
I would.
There's a continuum here.
* Are you not going because your wife invited you and you declined?
* Are you not going to because you are out of town that evening?
* Are you out of town because there weren't enough tickets available?
* Are you not going because she knew that you didn't want to go, and didn't invite you?
* Are you not going because she assumed that you didn't want to go, and didn't invite you?
* Are you not going because she wants to see it just with her girlfriends (and doesn't want you there)?
* Are you not going because her girlfriends don't want you there?
* Are you not going because her girlfriends don't want men in general there, because it would ruin their fun?
The closer she is to the bottom of that list, the less acceptable it is.
If you want it in a smaller package (a nutshell), are you absent because you want to be, or because she wants you to be?
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I'm not sure about the "boy's night out" thing.
I would say however the "boy's night out" may not have been gatekeeping itself but...
Y'all...
I mean I guess I set myself up for this by not explicitly providing the context of "my partner's garbage ex boyfriend and his friends specifically excluded women from playing D&D with them because they considered it 'a guy thing'". But I was really hoping y'all would chill on this and not try to explain someone else's experience.
also see a big difference between "We want an occasional boys/girls night out, without the other gender, regardless of activity" and "We want to keep this activity as a boys/girls thing giving you no chance to join in."
A difference of degree only, not of kind, I'm afraid. Telling "that kind of person" that they only have to ride in the back of the bus occasionally, during busy hours, is still discrimination; telling someone "we don't want your kind in here today, but tomorrow is fine" is still gatekeeping.
I'm not sure about the "boy's night out" thing.I would say however the "boy's night out" may not have been gatekeeping itself but...Y'all...
I mean I guess I set myself up for this by not explicitly providing the context of "my partner's garbage ex boyfriend and his friends specifically excluded women from playing D&D with them because they considered it 'a guy thing'". But I was really hoping y'all would chill on this and not try to explain someone else's experience.
Well they kind of have to "explain some else's experience" if that someone else doesn't actually explain the experience with any kind of detail. As other posters have argued, "boy's night out" can mean multiple things, depending largely upon the intent behind it ("I don't want women to be involved in this kind of activity" vs. "I want to go do this activity with these people who incidentally aren't women" vs. "None of my women friends want to do this activity") so in the absence of further explanation, we were forced to guess as to what the mentioned situation involved.
Well in this case context would have helped, especially since some of us have similar experiences. The way it was prefaced made it seem like a normal "guys night out" not some complete a##~#$#. Which in turn made it seem like having a "guys night out" was exclusionary on its own regardless of situation.
Just to show that this problem of gate-keeping isn't confined to gaming, here is a pretty good article about it in birding (which actually references gaming)
I think you will note a lot of common complaints. Although personally the "creepy flirting" thing seems less common from what I see, but that is probably because of differences in age demographics between gaming/birding
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If I refer to someone as a "Gamer Girl" that is simply because I wished to explain that she is a girl who also plays games in the fewest combination of possible words.And the fact that someone was upset by that has not changed your behavior?
Perhaps you could afford the few microseconds it takes to use descriptions that aren't offensive. Or even just call her a Gamer. That's even fewer words.
The problem is that there is almost no behavior in today's world that won't offend some group of people or another. If you open a door for the woman behind you, she might get offended. If you don't open it for her, she might get offended. If you let it close in her face she will probably get offended. At a certain point, you have to just live by your own standards of behavior and accept that some people are going to occasionally take offense to something you have done. Constantly walking on eggshells in no way to live a life.