This thread came about because of a discussion that cropped up in Mark Seifter's AMA thread.
The basic point of discussion is whether the DC calculation for a Prestige Class (10 + class level + ability modifier) is too low.
My belief is that it is actually "correct", because under fastest entry to a PrC the DC at level 6 is 11+ ability mod (which does suck a bit), and scales up to 20+ ability mod at 16th level, which is 2 higher than a 9 level spellcaster of the same level, so it starts of lower, caps out higher and faster, so is pretty well balanced against spellcasting and other SLA/Su ability DCs.
I'll leave it to others to give the opposing assertion, because my personal bias would come through and I don't want to dismiss that perspective out of hand or accidentally through my word choice.
I agree that it is working as intended. It is just lower than I like. The assassin having a high DC for the death attack would make some unhappy players since that is where I see it the most vs being an PC.
edit 1:I agree that it is working as intended. It is just lower than I like. The assassin having a high DC for the death attack would make some unhappy players since that is where I see it the most vs being an PC.
edit 2:When I said it was too low I am saying it is too low to normally be useful for the purpose of forcing a failed save.
What you just did was just best PrC example possible, and even then it won't top the highest level spell, which is your claim, unless I misunderstood. I disagree.
Now since you used a level 20 caster I will use the PrC's DC at level 20.
A level 20 caster will have a forumla of 10+9(spell level)+best attribute which can easily be a +10. That is a 29 DC, and it can go higher.
A PrC only has 10 levels.
Now in the other thread I misremembered the forumla. I had it as 10+1/2PrC level+stat mod, which felt off, but somehow I still misread it.
It is actually 10+PrC+stat mod which is not so bad, but the problem is that it used what is the 3rd normal stat for the class, which makes the ability difficult to get off.
So assuming 20 levels you get 10+10+5 or less. This assumes no magic item creation is in play.
So you have a 25. What CR monsters can reliably make a 25.
According to the monster creation chart which lines up with most monsters in the book by CR:
a CR 20 monster only has to roll a 3 for its good save.
CR 15 monsters(mooks) have a 55% chance of making the save.
CR 13 monsters have a 60% chance of failing a save, but at that level CR 13 monsters are likely not to be encountered. These special abilities tend to take a standard action or better to use, such as the assassin and its 3 round setup. IIRC the mantis assassin needs a full round action.
In those 3 round you are just better off attacking and killing it via hit point damage. If you are the mantis assassin your first attempt is likely to fail so once again I would suggest the hit point damage.
The witch doesn't have this problem because it uses it's higher stat modifier. If PrC's did that their abilities would be better.
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I think if you want your PrC ability to succeed most of the time, you should try and take the same steps as spellcasters that want their stuff to work:
-Focus on that ability score modifier.
-Target an enemy's weak save when possible.
-Take Ability Focus if allowed.
A spellcaster using a scroll of a 9th level spell against a target's good save is going to see results similar to your examples, and no one thinks that's a generally good option.
A +10 ability modifier, Ability Focus, and targeting a weak save gets you:
CR20 needs a 15 or higher (30% chance)
CR15 needs a 19 (10%)
CR13 is nat20 range.
If you don't devote some resources to making your ability relevant of course it's going to be hard to pull off.
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With PrC's the stat for that ability will make you weaker overall, unlike a caster. As an example that assassin uses intelligence, which means bypassing dexterity constitution strength, and wisdom.
I know clerics get to use charisma for channels, but even on a failed channel vs undead they get something out of it.
You can take ability focus also, but if the stat is not a top 3 stat for me then I am not burning a feat to help it out.
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With PrC's the stat for that ability will make you weaker overall, unlike a caster. As an example that assassin uses intelligence, which means bypassing dexterity constitution strength, and wisdom.
I know clerics get to use charisma for channels, but even on a failed channel vs undead they get something out of it.
You can take ability focus also, but if the stat is not a top 3 stat for me then I am not burning a feat to help it out.
I guess I see that as effectively saying that you don't think the ability is important enough to use resources on...so why would you expect it to work like it would for someone who does use those resources.
It's a perfectly fine character choice to ignore death attack because you don't think it's worth beefing up. I'm just saying it can be beefed up to the point of consistent utility. If you make it so that it's really effective without any resources, then players who do boost it can make it unstoppable, which is bad IMO.
With PrC's the stat for that ability will make you weaker overall, unlike a caster. As an example that assassin uses intelligence, which means bypassing dexterity constitution strength, and wisdom.
I know clerics get to use charisma for channels, but even on a failed channel vs undead they get something out of it.
You can take ability focus also, but if the stat is not a top 3 stat for me then I am not burning a feat to help it out.
I guess I see that as effectively saying that you don't think the ability is important enough to use resources on...so why would you expect it to work like it would for someone who does use those resources.
That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that in order to make one ability useful I have to really focus on an ability that makes the character much worse overall in many cases. If it was an even trade or a situation where it was not so bad then yeah of course it would be viable.
Using the assassin again they could have gone with constitution, which actually helps me in combat, and is often the modifier used when boosting something that attacks a fort save. That way the save might not be superhigh, but I don't have to rely on something 6 or 7 levels below to fail a save.
edit: That ability takes 3 rounds minimum to set up, and the fight could be over by then depending on the scenario. And if it fails you are unlikely to get another chance in that fight. The class is known for that ability. If it was just a "throw in" ability it would be different.
Thanks, wraith.
I'm inclined to look at it as an odd situation. I'll agree that it starts low (11+ mod at 6th level sucks sooooo bad), and the point about which attribute it keys off is a very important one (more on that in a bit), but it looks like you largely agree that, all else being equal, the DC for a PrC's special abilities is relatively balanced against core/base class DCs for a character of the same level.
If that assertion is correct, then we're good to get into the rest of it.
I think it's fair to say that SAD characters are able to optimise their effectiveness more easily than MAD characters, so when we discuss the assassin, we need to note that adding a fundamental ability for the PrC and keying it off an attribute that an optimal-entry character has had zero prior need for (benefit from, yes; need, no), makes the choice to select the PrC also a choice to make the character MAD.
This creates the situation where the character has become harder to optimise but whose class abilities are (largely) balanced against the abilities granted by other core/base classes. The question being, does the advantage of the PrC (a relatively unique ability) counter the negative of becoming MAD (the DC of the ability being a likely 2-5 points worse than another character's ability at the same level)?
I've got to say no, personally.
Of course, you have to also consider that fastest-entry isn't the only way to get into a PrC, so it's always possible that someone could build an Int-based assassin who absolutely rocks being SAD.
Perhaps a feat to counteract MADness? Select one ability score. Any ability DCs which are not based on that ability score have their DC increased by X, up to a maximum DC as if they were based on the selected ability score.
(I'm really not sure where to peg X.)
Starting to ramble, now, so I'll stop there for the time being.
Edit: wow, took me ages to write that.
Why use the assassin's assassinate when you could use the slayer's assassinate? Much better DC on that one.
The level scaling is fine -- and it actually gets better at higher levels, where it exceeds the half character level standard. The problem seems to be the choices of ability score modifiers and lack of reduced effects for successful saves.
With PrC's the stat for that ability will make you weaker overall, unlike a caster. As an example that assassin uses intelligence, which means bypassing dexterity constitution strength, and wisdom.
I know clerics get to use charisma for channels, but even on a failed channel vs undead they get something out of it.
You can take ability focus also, but if the stat is not a top 3 stat for me then I am not burning a feat to help it out.
I guess I see that as effectively saying that you don't think the ability is important enough to use resources on...so why would you expect it to work like it would for someone who does use those resources.
It's a perfectly fine character choice to ignore death attack because you don't think it's worth beefing up. I'm just saying it can be beefed up to the point of consistent utility. If you make it so that it's really effective without any resources, then players who do boost it can make it unstoppable, which is bad IMO.
Because the prestige classes don't suddenly grant you a massive boost to an ability score, and if you want to be functional you need a bunch of other ability scores, casters don't need anything other than their casting stat so it's fine to max it at the cost of everything else, that assassin needs his dex, con and maybe str to make him a competent melee combatant.
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It seems to me that if I really wanted to emphasize Death Attack I might go investigator into assassin. Investigator makes pretty good use of Int so points spent there would not be wasted at low levels. Plus there are a lot of good 1st-2nd level extracts that would help with actually doing assassinations.
Here's a 15 PB spread that would work pretty well for an investigator:
(before racial mods)
S14
D12
C12
I16
W10
Ch7
Use you WBL to buy Str/Dex belts to keep up on that end, use inspiration to help ensure your death attacks hit. At level 15 you could very well have a 26 Int and see DC28 on Death Attack. You have all your assassin stuff, plus a 10 point inspiration pool to use when needed.
Is this a ruthlessly optimized build? No, but it seems serviceable. I'd take this guy on an AP with no worries.
It seems to me that if I really wanted to emphasize Death Attack I might go investigator into assassin. Investigator makes pretty good use of Int so points spent there would not be wasted at low levels. Plus there are a lot of good 1st-2nd level extracts that would help with actually doing assassinations.
Here's a 15 PB spread that would work pretty well for an investigator:
(before racial mods)
S14
D12
C12
I16
W10
Ch7Use you WBL to buy Str/Dex belts to keep up on that end, use inspiration to help ensure your death attacks hit. At level 15 you could very well have a 26 Int and see DC28 on Death Attack. You have all your assassin stuff, plus a 10 point inspiration pool to use when needed.
Is this a ruthlessly optimized build? No, but it seems serviceable. I'd take this guy on an AP with no worries.
That is an option now, but it was not an option until years after the PrC was created and other PrC's suffer similar issues. I just chose the Assassin because it was core, and it shows that from the beginning the PrC's have been held back with regard to DC's in most cases.
Why use the assassin's assassinate when you could use the slayer's assassinate? Much better DC on that one.
Because the topic is not really about the assassin, but PrC's DC's for their special abilities.
The slayer also uses intelligence, just like the assassin does for the stat mod, so it also has the same problem.
Since you can ignore the dex requirements for TWF to some extent you can try to go do that, but dex is still needed for AC, reflex saves, and initiative, so you can try to go first in combat. No matter how you slice it int is more of a "nice to have", and not something to focus on. With the class getting 6 skill points per level it can function with an int of 10, and still be decent at skills.
You likely still need that dex to do same setup as the assassin in most cases, which works better from stealth(requires dex).
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I feel PrCs are weak in general... except that dragon one...
It will be interesting to see whether those prestige class boosting feats that are supposed to be in Paths of the Righteous will be strong enough to encourage us to revisit this topic when that product comes out.