I looked around for a while for which sub forum I should latch onto, in order to suck out advice and suggestions like a lamprey. If this is not the right or best one, I can only pray forgiveness and ask that this thread be punted somewhere more suitable.
I have a lot of material for a custom setting. It has very few art assets, but it is - mostly - well and clearly written, edited, and presentable. I would stack it up against any set of official 3.5 campaign setting material (though I know enough of the OCD drafting process to understand that this feeling would probably only last about two hours into third-party editing by professional sources). It includes about 200 pages of drafted content as of writing this OP, including material on races, classes, custom feats, a custom system for technomancy (think Magika by Paradox Interactive, or the Words of Power system), and all the fripperies you'd expect from a two-course complete campaign setting, one being the settings material, written in-character by an adventurer of the setting, and the other being the much drier and crunchier rules set and game information.
The "mostly" in the previous paragraph is a reference to the fact that some of this material is still in a very rough form. To prepare for a new campaign, I have been fleshing out and drafting this rough material, towards the goal of handing my players two complete and professional-looking PDFs that they can peruse at their leisure, so that they have the chance ahead of time to let the setting percolate into their heads, e.g.: to know why the invention of steam power in Five Cities forced a lot of halflings into the coal mines.
Something occurred to me in the middle of this process: I could make a stab at actually producing this material as a third-party publisher, assuming I was egotistical and brave enough to do so. After all, I had spent stupid amounts of time on creating and refining it, and I liked money. It helps pay for coffee, electricity and water, with which I can brew more coffee. But I have never done this "third-party publishing" thing that I hear is all the rage these days. To be fair, as an English major I have a sort of parallel understanding of the publishing business, but I'm pretty sure that this understanding has little in common with publishing under Pathfinder's open d20 license, not to mention how to do so successfully.
That said, I'm turning to you guys for advice. What should I do to possibly get the ball rolling? What should I not do? Who has a good book-printing service, or should I stay completely digital? Who can I go to for third-party editing, or can I do it completely in-house as long as I'm confident in my ability to do so? What licensing pit falls should I know about ahead of time? Am I crazy for even considering this? You know, all the boring stuff that comes after late nights hugging my coffee and spinning out a world for players to enjoy.
TLDR: Potential first time publisher asking for advice from people who actually know what they're doing.
If you're publishing stuff for Pathfinder, the first bit is to be very, very clear about understanding the OGL and what the various licenses actually permit you to use in your work. The big thing is Product Identity - you shouldn't use other people's if you want to publish for profit.
It looks to me like you want the Pathfinder Compatibility License. After you're familiar with the OGL, read all of that. Read it several times. Memorize it, even. ^^
Thanks for the advice. Been reading through it. First thing I'd like clarified, if possible:
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.
What constitutes identification here? If, for example, I have a race called "Elf," which shares some racial traits with the elf race seen in Pathfinder's Core Rulebook, but has several things changed (such as traits, stat bonuses, flavor, origin, etc.) how would I go about "identifying" this as open game content? Can I not mention traits of the Core Book's race at all, and only post the bits that are different? Can I write in parts of the core race as "reproduced from yadah for reference," or am I limited to saying (as under 5. Compatability in the Paizo Inc. Pathfinder® Roleplaying Game Compatibility License), "See the Elf Racial Traits section in Chapter 3... " yadah yadah, then "The following sections replace Elven Immunities, Elven Magic and Keebler Cookie Baking."
Obligatory Disclaimer: I am a meat popsicle who understands the need for obligatory disclaimers.
Can I add this disclaimer to other notices in the pre-pages of the material? E.g.: "Any content which is a direct reference to material published by Pazio in [list source book here] is the property of Pazio.inc and it's subsidiaries." And in the content mentioned, say (perhaps in a side bar), that these entries, before discussing racial packages (the changes to the races), are directly referenced from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for your convenience.
On a similar note, is there a professional legal service who could help with the language on these things? The kind that doesn't need Obligatory Disclaimers? Or is that something that Pazio refines with you when you send them a copy of your material.
Wow. I think I'm a little in love with this Liz Courts. Her profile has some serious dank links to it. Going to read that after I, you know, get back to doing useful stuff with my day and drafting the next regional section of aforementioned pipe dream.
*Sets a tripwire trap for legal experts in the dank and musty licensing law dungeon*
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Get a lawyer. I mean, an actual one, not some weird hack who fights flamewars on Internet boards while disguised as a bag of devouring. Doesn't need to be Matt Murdock Foggy Nelson, but needs a basic grasp of IP law and licensing agreements such as the OGL. Check with him/her what open content, product identity are. Make sure you are aware that Paizo and WotC are domiciled in the US of A and the legal implications of that fact. And don't put any female nipples on the cover or there will be consequences.
Should I have such a person review the entire final cut, or just the legal declarations and product images, including the use of the Pathfinder open source logos and suchlike, and read up on OGL and the Pathfinder compatability license to the point I'm beyond comfortable with the wording of the material itself. This isn't exactly a 'small' amount of stuff to review, and I'm not exactly swimming in disposable income.
Also, you're a weird internet hack disguised as a bad of devouring, disguised as a bag of holding, otherwise your bag of devouring disguise needs some work.
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The lawyer doesn't have to read the whole story of how a gnome king went under the mountain, but he/she should take a look at all content you want to use under OGL and the way you reproduce the license in the product. You can do the job of finding out whether Star Vampire is open content or not yourself by checking OGL statements in products where you draw the content from. Hint: d20pfsrd is not the best tool for that, check the actual source product itself.
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Gorbacz is correct.
Honestly, as this is your first attempt at something like this, I would actually suggest that you NOT try to jump in as a 3PP publisher yourself. Being a 3PP publisher is fairly involved and there are plenty of pitfalls.
I think you might be much better off dipping your toe in, so to speak, by contacting one of the smaller existing 3PP publishers to see if they are interested in what you have.
Thankfully, the only section in the material that I think I'm going to have to be really careful on is the section on race, as terms common to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (trying to get into the habit of typing that) and the rest of the material seem to be open content, like "elf," "human," "goblin," "sorcerer," and other non-proper nouns like that. The iffy problem with the game rules section on racial qualities is that most of the core races are changed to fit in the setting, but to illustrate those changes I really need to reference racial traits that are already laid out in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Obviously I don't want to, nor (I believe) could I reproduce even just the text of the elf racial information from the Core Rulebook without having my license revolved, but neither do I want to just go the route of 'the following blah blah traits replaces the blah blah traits, which may be found under 'Elf Racial Traits' in chapter 3 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook." Doing so is going to force every reader to have two books open next to each other and cross-reference them constantly. Section 5 seems to imply that you can only refer to an... item? written in an Exhibit B-listed material by it's name and a reference to the section and chapter, but reprinting the rules on Elven Immunities or Elven Weapon Proficiencies wouldn't contain any Product Identity material, and it seems? to be covered under OGL, since it's nearly word-for-word what my 3.5 handbook has.
@ Marc Radle: Sorry, cross posted you there.
I have to admit, that's an idea I hadn't yet considered. I know as an independent 3PP publisher, I'd have a lot of record-keeping to do (namely 1098 and 1099 forms and withholdings for contractors, deciding on type of business and accounting, etc.), and more of the stuff that makes people who want to get interesting stuff out there cry themselves to sleep out of sheer banality, beyond simply getting the OGL and the Pathfinder Compat. License.
But I also want control and ownership over the IP, which is something I doubt a 3PP would agree too. I'm also wary of such a situation, as in the past I know colleagues who have had material plagarized without recourse by publishing partners they had once trusted, simply because they believed their partner when they said that they didn't need to go over the technical terms of the partnership or contract with a fine-toothed comb.
That said, does anyone know of a 3PP who would actually be interested and could be trusted? Not saying I'm bananas over the idea, if the last paragraph is any indication, but I also like having options. Again, not exactly swimming in money or time here.
You're generally pretty safe in duplicating anything on the Public Reference Document.
That was my impression, too, after reading more of the material on Liz Courts bio. Specifically, her definition under the terminology section:
Pathfinder Reference Document: The “base” rules mechanics for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, maintained at http://paizo.com/
prd . This is the only official site, and generally only contains Open Game Content from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line, though
several sites exist that collect Open Game Content from other material produced by Paizo.
The first method would seem to be the best, as the races do have complete entries in the game information book. Thankfully, the world setting book is of little concern here, as the entire thing is all flavor, description and depiction told by an in-world character; think the sections in Shadowrun game material where it's entirely in-character discourse (after which they drop to second person and talk directly to the reader.)
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@ Marc Radle: Sorry, cross posted you there.
I have to admit, that's an idea I hadn't yet considered. I know as an independent 3PP publisher, I'd have a lot of record-keeping to do (namely 1098 and 1099 forms and withholdings for contractors, deciding on type of business and accounting, etc.), and more of the stuff that makes people who want to get interesting stuff out there cry themselves to sleep out of sheer banality, beyond simply getting the OGL and the Pathfinder Compat. License.
But I also want control and ownership over the IP, which is something I doubt a 3PP would agree too. I'm also wary of such a situation, as in the past I know colleagues who have had material plagarized without recourse by publishing partners they had once trusted, simply because they believed their partner when they said that they didn't need to go over the technical terms of the partnership or contract with a fine-toothed comb.
That said, does anyone know of a 3PP who would actually be interested and could be trusted? Not saying I'm bananas over the idea, if the last paragraph is any indication, but I also like having options. Again, not exactly swimming in money or time here.
Hey there - sorry your friend had that experience.
However, the established Pathfinder 3PP companies (especially the larger, more popular ones) are all honest, reputable and professional. Contracts are signed, things like terms and rights are discussed up front etc. The Pathfinder 3PP arena isn't a back room dealings, steal your material kind of environment.
You are of course free to pursue whichever option you choose and feel most comfortable with, but I'd still counsel you to strongly consider getting involved with a 3PP that is interested in publishing some, or all, of your material and leave becoming a 3PP yourself for farther down the road, once you've attained more experience with the industry.
Just my 2 cents of course!
That's exactly what someone who's already sold out to the 3PP Masters would say! I am wise to your will-o-wisp ways, good sir.
To be serious, I don't really get a predatory feeling from the third party publishing community around WotC's OGL, at least if lurking and second-hand information is anything to go by. I can probably figure it out on my own, but if anyone has a 'whose-who' of 3PP groups they're willing to share, it would save me some time when/if I get to rudely cold-calling people.
That said, I'm mostly attempting to figure out the breadth of options I have to choose from, and what options are actually pit-falls, as far as licensing and distribution is concerned. I'm a far ways away from actually choosing any (assuming I do publish), seeing as though I'm still drafting material for this project.
I would like to hear more regarding the development-size of things as well, questions like: how much would you expect to pay artists for pictures of X size and Y type? Is Kickstarter a feasible option for financing this kind of project, specifically for a first-timer like myself? Has anyone done a first-person, in-character world settings book before, and could someone give me an example (either as total bomb or quality example). How much playtesting would you suggest before calling a product sound and balanced? Should I even touch physical printing?
Thank you all for the advice so far; I'm feeling that this idea is less and less crazy.
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Talk to the artist you are interested in if you are looking at prices. What John pays for X doesn't mean Sally pays the same. People make friends and negotiate.
Kickstarter is a fail for a 1st time publisher with no name if your goal is over $500. Unless you have something awesome.
I'm going to keep this brief. A lot of publishers had to search for the information you are asking when we started. I'd suggest the google on how a publishing company can do physical. I will say print on demand. You can find the rest that way.
Take a second and dig through this forum. There are several several several post of people asking the same questions you have that have been answered.
@ Garnath Frostmantle
Thanks for the response. I know that different artists are going to have different going rates, especially depending on the perceived quality of their work. I mainly want to know what a good base line would be, since while I've touched on going rates for editing, magazine/journal work and similar, I have no idea what a "median" price might be for art assets, as it is something I have literally never investigated before, save perhaps paying someone to make an awesome plague doctor mask for a role in a Halloween fun house. Something tells me that doesn't count as 'experience.'
I figured Kickstarter would be a no-go. Wanted to ask though to cover options.
As for printing, I know that printing on demand is always the way to go for independent authors to get published; the industry is grabbing more market share every day. I'm looking for advice on which printers people have had good experiences with in the past, and whether or not a physical printing is worth it, let alone reasonable.
I have dug through the forums via the search functions, and the two ones I found before posting this OP were this one by Covent, and this one by Spencer krigbaum. The first, while it was much more interesting and of more import than the second (and also featuring posts from you, Mark Radle), was also last seriously posted in at the end of 2012 (apart from a brief necro).
A lot can change in a couple years, and I wanted some more current advice, if possible. I didn't want to start making plans for something I've put a lot of time and effort into, only to find that I'm suffering from misconceptions about the current 3PP enviornment/zeitgeist which could have been solved by a new OP. Sorry if it seems like I'm clogging up the forums.
You can check this thread to see rates that other companies have offered. ^^
Oooh, good idea. I actually checked that thread out before, but my pillock-brain stopped me from using it as a barometer for going rates of art assets. Many thanks.