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I am considering a build for an Ectoplasmatist. Before I dive into my build concept I kinda need some information on how the mechanics of the class works. I would rather not deal with table variation so any input on this would be helpful as I was planning this for PFS play.
That being said I do not know who designed the archetype but some input from that person would likely be helpful. I know there has already been a FAQ for that book so perhaps this could be added to that. I know I am not alone with these questions (please FAQ request this post). Even without a FAQ I have had very positive results from designer's intent posts so even just that would be very helpful. I appreciate anyone taking their time to help. Thank you in advance!
So without further ado, here are the questions:
1. While I'm fairly certain there is no issue with taking Weapon Focus for weapon-like spells and bombs where does that leave Lash? Judging from this FAQ it seems like it is all allowable. Bombs are (Su) and so is Lash so ... I'm good. Right?
2. The Lashes don't actually take up hands... or do they? The fluff seems to indicate that they do not with "ectoplasm tethered to her by wispy, ectoplasmic tendrils" but then it also says "she can wield them both as light melee weapons". I can't tell whether they mean that they sorta just come out of her like a tentacle as a separate appendage or if that while they are tethered that they still have to be held to be swung like a weapon.
I am assuming that you need Two-Weapon Fighting to use two Lashes effectively because it says that they are wielded like weapons. But whether they take up an actual hand or not seems fuzzy. The level 4 ability allowing them to manipulate objects at a distance could either mean that they are separate autonomous appendages or that you still have to hold them to use them in this way. Spiritual Combat also is unclear. The ability saying "an ectoplasmatist can make all of her attacks with a single light or one-handed ectoplasmic lash wielded in one hand, and also cast a single spiritualist spell" could be interpreted in two different ways. The first is that it is saying "wielded in one hand" to signify that this ability wont function if you manifest the two-handed bludgeoning Lash, or it could support the concept that it takes a hand to "wield" the lash.
We could go with the fluff of the archetype concept in that basically it replaces a Phantom with with Ectoplasmic Lash in a sense that they harbor this mentally. But if we are likening it to a Phantom they are interchangeably described as an extension of the character's own consciousness and as a separate creature. Mostly, though, when the Phantom isn't manifested it is treated as part of the character. But where does that leave Ectoplasmic Lash? Manifested, partially manifested, "harbored" or somewhere in between? Its certainly not a separate being, but separate appendage?
This is important for several reasons. IE: How do Deliquescent Gloves work with these attacks (or do they at all)? Can I use a shield while using both Lashes? How about a buckler? Does it even allow for the use of Slashing Grace or any of the feats that require a free hand (Crane Style, etc.)?
3. How would one improve these attacks? I get that an Amulet of Mighty Fists wouldn't work as it isn't a natural attack. It is, however, still a "weapon". ...or is it? It is wielded as a weapon. But is it treated as a weapon for other things? What about Greater Magic Weapon? We covered whether it can be treated as a weapon for feats (I think they can) but what about other effects? Say you were some funky combination of Paladin and Ectoplasmatist: could you use your Divine Bond on your Lashes? Likewise what about a Magus using his Arcane Pool to enhance his weapon? Hell... for that matter could a Bladebound Magus make his Lashes an intelligent Black Blade? It could certainly make for an interesting concept!
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1. A lash is a weapon, so Weapon Focus is good.
2. It's not super clear, but I would say they do take up hands. The good news is that you don't need hands to cast psychic spells. The archetype seems very similar to a mindblade magus, for reference.
If you want to dual wield them, you will want Two-Weapon Fighting.
To your questions: Deliquescent Gloves wouldn't affect lashes. No to the shield, unless you have the buckler feats. Two-Weapon fighting would not count as having a free hand.
3. Your enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack, but you could put some alternate abilities on them if you dipped 5 levels into paladin or magus. I wouldn't though. You get the equivalent of +5 weapons by level 12.
I would use your spells to buff yourself, or deliver nasty touch spells to your foes.
KingOfAnything:
2: If you don't need hands to cast psychic spells then how exactly does their Spiritual Combat work? In other words, shouldn't you be able to use two light or one handed weapons or a two-handed weapon and use it? It seems to specifically mean that you have to have a hand free or why else limit it to only a single light or one handed weapon? I mean, I get the balance perspective of it but is there also a RP reason? I'm thinking that you mean that it is only a balance reason.
I get that opinions are likely going to be that it is either a weapon in your hand or it is more like a separate appendage. Personally, to me, the flavor seems slightly in favor of the latter while the technical crunch seems firmly split and leaves it very unclear. But just knowing how it is treated in the respect of whether it takes up a hand or not would probably answer most of the other questions. Just like your responses seem to make sense if you start from the perspective of it taking up a hand. In fact, the only thing that doesn't really jive is why you believe that Deliquescent Gloves don't work as they say "If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon..." which seems to coincide with your opinion of how it works. I mean it sounds like you are opposed to Slashing Grace working because you would be "fighting with two weapons" and "hand is otherwise occupied". But if that is the case then aren't you "using your hand to wield a weapon"? I can't think that neither would work. It seems like a one or the other kind of thing.
Edit: Hm. If we go with your line thinking and that Slashing Grace wouldn't work then the only thing that would work to get Dex to Damage would be what?... You couldn't use the Agile weapon property as there is no way that I know of to apply that to your Lash attacks. Unchained Rogue 3? I guess if I did do Unchained Rogue 3 then I would at least get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, wouldn't have to spend a feat on Slashing Grace and could get Combat Trick to gain another feat. That does kinda take care of all of the feat issues. But at the cost of 3 levels of Ectoplasmatist... I'm not sure if that is worth it.
Also, on a separate note, while from a power perspective I know going with 5 levels of Magus would not be very beneficial... having a Bladebound Magus with their Ectoplasmic Lashes being their intelligent Black Blade does sound super awesome. I kinda wanna do it. Plus, I could go with only 3 levels of Kensai/Bladebound and get the Black Blade rather than 5 and pick up Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. It does put off the rest of the Ectoplasmatist stuff though... ugh.
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Quoting a portion of the Spiritual Combat ability:
"At 3rd level, as a full-round action, an ectoplasmatist can make all of her attacks with a single light or one-handed ectoplasmic lash wielded in one hand, and also cast a single spiritualist spell with a casting time of one standard action as a free action either before or after making the ectoplasmic lash attacks. "
I'd infer from this that you do, in fact, wield the lashes in hand.
Spiritual Combat also is unclear. The ability saying "an ectoplasmatist can make all of her attacks with a single light or one-handed ectoplasmic lash wielded in one hand, and also cast a single spiritualist spell" could be interpreted in two different ways. The first is that it is saying "wielded in one hand" to signify that this ability wont function if you manifest the two-handed bludgeoning Lash, or it could support the concept that it takes a hand to "wield" the lash.
But I get that you believe that it means you actually use your hand to wield it.
There is another option. It could be that it uses your "metaphysical hand" or "a hand worth of effort". But those debates are silly, cause rules conflicts and make my head hurt.
Either way, please hit FAQ.
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2. Yeah, it's a balance reason. It takes a "hand" of effort to do spell combat. For reference, the mindblade magus can't spell combat and two-weapon fight until 7th level, but even then their weapons are generally a bit weaker.
I don't know quite what I was thinking about the gloves, but you are right, they should apply to the lash you have in hand.
I really don't think Dex to Damage is necessary. But, if you really want it and also want Two Weapon Fighting, Unchained Rogue is the only way I can think of.
Aside, I don't think the lashes have to fill your hands all the time, just when you attack. I'd treat them as being on weapon cords or "sheathed" when not in hand. After all, they are tethered to you. (You just look really weird walking around with tendrils out...)
No way. Out all the time. Especially during diplomatic missions. It lets you play the "I'm offended because you are looking at me like a freak so now I hold the moral upper hand." card. (joke) ;)
Well, at least your opinion is now consistant with the gloves thing. I just don't know if that is how it is intended.
The way I see it with your understanding of how the class abilities work I could go 3 URogue to get Dex to damage and TWF and all the feats I need to get it to work for free, I could go Kensai/Bladebound Magus 3 to get my Lashes to be Intelligent Black Blades and get a free Weapon Focus but only get Dex to damage with a one handed Lash attack, or go full Ectoplasmatist and be short on feats and still only get Dex to damage on one handed Lash attacks. Hm. Tough one. I think full Ectoplasmatist is actually the least desirable among them.
No way. Out all the time. Especially during diplomatic missions. It lets you play the "I'm offended because you are looking at me like a freak so now I hold the moral upper hand." card. (joke) ;)
Hands out for your phantom, Harambe.
FYI - I got an answer on this question over here.
I don't know if you've resolved the initial question of hand use with the lashes, but as the designer of the archetype, I can share that in both intent and execution (I thought the latter was clear, anyway), the ectoplasmatist's hands are indeed taken up when wielding the lashes.
Good to see the Herolabs folks are reading my threads still. *waves*
So my question is about the reach aspect of the lashes. The book says that at 4th level you gain +5ft Reach and at 8th you gain another +5ft for a total of +10ft Reach with the lashes. Does that mean they have a total reach of 10ft or do they have 15ft? There is some discrepancy in my play group over which is the correct range.
Assuming that the ectoplasmatist is small or medium, their reach is already 5 feet at 1st level. It increases by 5 feet at 4th level for a total of 10 feet. It increases again by 5 feet at 8th level for a total of 15 feet. A tiny (or smaller) or large (or larger) ectoplasmatist starts at a different reach accordingly.