Readied Disarm Vs Returning weapons?

[Murdock Mudeater]

If my PC readies a disarm combat manuver against the next attack by a melee weapon, and that next attack happens to be a ranged attack with a melee weapon with the returning property, can I disarm it?

[Hugo Rune]

No - the weapon is a thrown (ranged) weapon for the purposes of that attack

At other times the same weapon could be used as a melee weapon.

[Quintain]

A readied disarm happens before the throw. So, I do not see why a disarm wouldn't work, as the attacker is holding the weapon at that point.

I think your readied criteria might be a little sketchy though. There is no reason to ready against a melee weapon specifically. You can disarm whatever weapon they are attacking with, ranged or not.

[wraithstrike]

No, it can't be done. <---Assumes you are not threatening them.
1. The person does not have the weapon when it is in the air so you can't disarm them of something they would not have.

2. Disarm is resolved in place of a melee attack, and the target is not the weapon, but the character, which is why the character's CMD applies. The result is that you get their weapon. You can't make a melee based attack against someone you do not threaten.

3. Disarm says:

Quote:

If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands)

An item that is flying through the air is not going to be carried.

4. When a weapon is thrown it counts as a ranged weapon.

[swoosh]

I believe Murdock isn't asking about threatening and whether the attack is in flight or not doesn't matter because readied actions happen immediately before the triggering action.

The question more seems to about whether or not an attack with a thrown dagger counts as an attack with a melee weapon for the sake of this triggering condition.

To which I can only answer... why? It seems like an unnecessarily limiting an oddly worded trigger condition to me.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Wow. Didn't think it would be this confusing. Perhaps my trigger is worded wrong.

My goal is to find out if I can disrupt the returning ability with disarm, so the weapon doesn't return to the wielder. As I read it, seems like the weapon remains in the wielder's control while in flight, so even if it isn't held, I think it should still qualify for disarm attempts. Kinda a confusing concept.

[wraithstrike]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Wow. Didn't think it would be this confusing. Perhaps my trigger is worded wrong.

My goal is to find out if I can disrupt the returning ability with disarm, so the weapon doesn't return to the wielder. As I read it, seems like the weapon remains in the wielder's control while in flight, so even if it isn't held, I think it should still qualify for disarm attempts. Kinda a confusing concept.

No it won't let you disrupt disarm. There is no rules support for it. It is not really in his control in flight. It just has a magical ability that forces the weapon to return to the user vs landing in the target square, and you would still have to be able to target the wielder for it to work. And as mentioned before he can't drop the item because he is not holding it.

An interesting counter would be something like snatch arrow, assuming it does not specifically call out ammunition, but even then I would favor returning.

[Quintain]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Wow. Didn't think it would be this confusing. Perhaps my trigger is worded wrong.

My goal is to find out if I can disrupt the returning ability with disarm, so the weapon doesn't return to the wielder. As I read it, seems like the weapon remains in the wielder's control while in flight, so even if it isn't held, I think it should still qualify for disarm attempts. Kinda a confusing concept.

I'd go with no on this one. It's outside of the ability of disarm to prevent the returning ability from functioning.

Now, if you had something like Snatch arrows, then that could do what you want, because you take possession of the weapon.

[Talonhawke]

Snatch arrows
Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use.

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

Deflect Arrows
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn't count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected.

Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Since returning waits until just before initive comes back around Snatch should work just fine even more so since you can throw it back as a free action and now it would return to you.

[Andarion]

So I am kind of confused. Are you trying to disarm BEFORE the attack is made or "disarm" the weapon as it pass by/hits you?

If it is the first, you can only disarm if you are threatening, which under most cases would mean that they would draw an attack of opportunity from you for making a ranged attack while in melee. So no need to ready a disarm.

If you are trying to "disarm" as it passes by/hits you, readied action sunder or steal maybe. Although how you would resolve that, no idea.