So what about strength?

[Torbyne]

anapuna wrote:

wow. no one has mentioned RIFTS or RIFTS dimension books. this stuff is all old hat. i am curious how paizo is going to spin it.

1. there is no recoil on lazer weapons. none also no sound. the only STR needed is to carry the weapon and ammo/batteries. plasma has little to no recoil unless huge. you do not shoot bullets in a space ship. there should still will be rockets and other explosive shooting heavy class weapons. they should be antivehicle. those will have recoils and be heavy to carry period. the STR requirement will keep dexers from owning every gun and the most damaging ones.
2. power armor has internal servos and motors. it is powered take the load off of the human. this is the case in reality and fiction. this could bypass the STR requirement for heavy weapons. also so could cyborg enhancement.
3. someone said STR could cap cybernetics. no. makes no sense. CON would be better. the bodies ability to handle medical procedure and then a foreign object in it. is best a CON stat.
4. the drawback to power armor is probably loss of speed and possibly dex. then again you could equip it with comm gear, laser sights, range finders, video magnifiers, sealed environment, temp resistance and other functions.
5. how far will they go with "enhancement". partial would be a lost arm or hand with same as race stats. to lift 500lbs for a human lets say. the arm would break off the body. lack of support structure. this would require a reinforced spine that attaches to the new arms and reinforced hip and bone. otherwise the human would crumple. so now you have half conversion borg. and then you have full conversion. a brain in armor. robocop.
6. zero g combat. STR is useless. again best with dex, but treat like the fly skill. moving in zero g takes practice first. after you can figure out how to move, you can combat. so maybe 3 skill ranks in zero g move and then it can combat role?

I like what you've got going on here. I didnt think of Rifts, only had one evening with the system back in... '02 i think. i vaguely remember having a mechanic with a ridiculous psi stat letting him mind meld with computers i think. and then being upset that an ion pistol couldnt kill somebody in a hit and i couldnt weld three of them together with my amazing mechanic skill to make a useful weapon.

As far as recoil and sound go, i could see lasers making mini thunder claps, especially if the laser ionizes the air as part of firing. but i would assume that the art for the game will also depict lasers in visible spectrum anyways. I am sure they can maguffin something in for game balance, "magnetic containment used in hand held lasers have the unfortunate side effect of repelling forces and throwing off point of aim for follow on shots..."

thinking back on full conversion cyborgs, I wonder if that will have a place in a setting where Androids, already at least partially nano-bot based and able to mimic organic functions, already exist. I doubt many would choose to re-house themselves into a dedicated hard-shelled combat model when you could move into a far more organic seeming Android body and just wear power armor like everyone else does. Perhaps a dedicated warrior sub-culture where the point is literally making yourself into a weapon.

anyways, yeah, to focus more on your points.

1) i agree with the premise but expect there will still be visible and audible signs of laser weapons. special stealth sniper lasers would be cool though.

1A-2) Heavy weapons needing a STR score without special harnesses or power armor? yes please! Remember the harnesses for smart guns in Aliens? But will power armor replace your strength score with its own or augments what you already have? i suppose the best case scenario is PA has a STR rating, if your score is under the armors than you use the armor's value as long as it remains powered. If your score is over the armor's than you get a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus to your strength score? a constant aid another effect?

3) Why place a stat limit for number of cybernetics at all, the body of a PC is already divided into slots, a similar system can be used for cybernetics. 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 torso and 1 head (for most races at least) each part be be fully or partially replaced. Other cybernetics are either slotless or tied to a stat as a cybernetic enhancement. Hrmm.. it could get a little complex but still manageable i think. After a while though you get into full conversion territory though and should roll over to a template to represent it better. Still, a basic example of the kind of system i am imagining: Cybernetic arms (full replacement of both arm slots) which grant a +2 STR bonus with an additional reinforcing framework of cybernetic bodywork (slotless STR associated augment of which you are allowed 1 for each stat) granting a +4 cybernetic enhancement bonus, total of +6 STR and you get to look like Jax from Mortal Combat.

4)Something i have read about with real world PA attempts is that things that slow you down and restrict your motion will actually fatigue the user fairly quickly and limits where the device could actually be used. Functional PA should at a minimum allow normal movement speed and be very close to your normal range of motion. Specialized armors could allow greater than normal ranges(have you ever seen those power/spring stilt things? wikipedia has a claim about easily reaching a 20MPH "foot" speed)

5) i kind of went into this in point 3, basically in agreement though.

6) Very interested in if they will address zero-G rules. But yeah, most skill checks should switch to DEX based. Just thinking about trying to model a warhammer strike in zero-G combat makes me think of the hilarity of knocking someone off a ship and sending them sailing into the void.

[gustavo iglesias]

anapuna wrote:

wow. no one has mentioned RIFTS or RIFTS dimension books. this stuff is all old hat. i am curious how paizo is going to spin it.

1. there is no recoil on lazer weapons. none also no sound. the only STR needed is to carry the weapon and ammo/batteries. plasma has little to no recoil unless huge. you do not shoot bullets in a space ship. there should still will be rockets and other explosive shooting heavy class weapons. they should be antivehicle. those will have recoils and be heavy to carry period. the STR requirement will keep dexers from owning every gun and the most damaging ones.
2. power armor has internal servos and motors. it is powered take the load off of the human. this is the case in reality and fiction. this could bypass the STR requirement for heavy weapons. also so could cyborg enhancement.
3. someone said STR could cap cybernetics. no. makes no sense. CON would be better. the bodies ability to handle medical procedure and then a foreign object in it. is best a CON stat.
4. the drawback to power armor is probably loss of speed and possibly dex. then again you could equip it with comm gear, laser sights, range finders, video magnifiers, sealed environment, temp resistance and other functions.
5. how far will they go with "enhancement". partial would be a lost arm or hand with same as race stats. to lift 500lbs for a human lets say. the arm would break off the body. lack of support structure. this would require a reinforced spine that attaches to the new arms and reinforced hip and bone. otherwise the human would crumple. so now you have half conversion borg. and then you have full conversion. a brain in armor. robocop.
6. zero g combat. STR is useless. again best with dex, but treat like the fly skill. moving in zero g takes practice first. after you can figure out how to move, you can combat. so maybe 3 skill ranks in zero g move and then it can combat role?

Problem in your post is that it's basically saying that STR should be useless and never used and everybody should dump it, always. Which is not the best of ideas when talking about game balance.

[deusvult]

I'm not sure whether inertial stabilizers and anti-gravity are going to be the default assumption for Starfinder spacecraft, but without them STR is going to be at least as important for piloting as would be DEX. When you're pulling 5-6+ Gs during a maneuver it matters more whether or not you can even keep your arm raised and on the controls than it does how finely your motor control is developed.

And then there's regular gravity. Dumping strength is problematic on a 1.0g world... it's even moreso on worlds with higher than 1.0g.

The major problem I forsee with strength is how do you just keep everyone from using the synthesist summoner technique... dump strength and count on power armor or something from making up the slack. I expect physical stat boosts from things like power armor should/could be treated like polymorph magic... they apply a bonus to strength rather than a reset to a new value.

I'd be a fan of piloting skill checks and attacks from automatic weapons using the WORST of the two stat bonuses from STR and DEX. Then again, I'm of the camp that dex-to-damage is a terrible thing for regular Pathfinder, too.