The thought occurred to me with most classes being between either shooters casters or teks won't strength be a almost useless stat for everyone? aside from being able to carry stuff (heavy guns or something) maybe throw the occasional grenade otherwise what sort of space class would really need it?
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Minimum strength requirement to use heavy guns without penalty?
Strength bonuses negate cumulative penalties from recoil when using weapons with high rate of fire?
Example Gun:
This weapon requires two hands to use and includes a battery pack worn on the back.
Heavy Weapon: -2 to hit. This penalty is decreased by your Strength bonus to a minimum of 0.
Rate of Fire: 3; Recoil: -4. This weapon can make up to three attacks per round. Each attack after the first in the round suffers a cumulative -4 penalty to hit. The recoil penalty is decreased by your Strength bonus to a minimum of 0.
I feel like con is a more likely candidate but maybe. I could see having heavy weapons that have a minimum str req or else you get penalties. I think the "space monk with laser sword" maybe but i can see finesse builds being favored (but really who knows yet) i assume hell be able to deflect lasers otherwise running at laser beams with a melee weapon doesn't make a lot of sense.
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It could determine whether or not you're capable of wearing heavy-duty power armor, and tough/strong characters are hardly uncommon in sci-fi. Klingons and John Carter, for instance, or species from higher gravity worlds.
Come to think of it, it might be that there are high gravity planets that only characters with good Strength can explore. Then again, it wouldn't exactly be good design to have part of the party sit out because an ability score isn't high enough.
It still applies to skill checks (limited in utility, but to a class that needs neither Charisma nor Strength, it's still debatably more valuable than Charisma, because it affects both skill checks and encumbrance).
Finally, whether or not it's valuable to player characters, there will almost certainly be hostile indigenous lifeforms that favor melee combat.
Minimum strength requirement to use heavy guns without penalty?
Strength bonuses negate cumulative penalties from recoil when using weapons with high rate of fire?
Example Gun:
This weapon requires two hands to use and includes a battery pack worn on the back.
Heavy Weapon: -2 to hit. This penalty is decreased by your Strength bonus to a minimum of 0.
Rate of Fire: 3; Recoil: -4. This weapon can make up to three attacks per round. Each attack after the first in the round suffers a cumulative -4 penalty to hit. The recoil penalty is decreased by your Strength bonus to a minimum of 0.
strangely elegant i like it.
It could determine whether or not you're capable of wearing heavy-duty power armor, and tough/strong characters are hardly uncommon in sci-fi. Klingons and John Carter, for instance, or species from higher gravity worlds.
Come to think of it, it might be that there are high gravity planets that only characters with good Strength can explore. Then again, it wouldn't exactly be good design to have part of the party sit out because an ability score isn't high enough.
It still applies to skill checks (limited in utility, but to a class that needs neither Charisma nor Strength, it's still debatably more valuable than Charisma, because it affects both skill checks and encumbrance).
Finally, whether or not it's valuable to player characters, there will almost certainly be hostile indigenous lifeforms that favor melee combat.
you make many good points totally agree with aliens doing melee. your totally right about klingons even though they usually seem to do melee for honor matter or bar fights and i've seen them get beamed in close and go to town in close combat. If it happens and the party is getting AOO trying to blast them it makes a soldier with a good strength seem all the more important.
You guys are good you dispelled my worries like that.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I could see high gravity worlds doing something like "your carrying capacity Str is adjusted by -4," or something like that. If your effective Str goes below 0 you can't actually move against the extreme gravity.
Maybe it should just be an overall environmental Str penalty - it ought to be harder to swing a vibroaxe if the thing weighs 70 pounds.
Doing it as a penalty would allow most characters to participate in the adventure while giving high Str characters an advantage. I presume APs would not throw a Str -16 world at low level PCs.
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Holes in the hull are BAD. Holes in the oxygen lines are worse. Fires are catastrophic.
Stabbing/clubbing things to death will still have a place in space adventure, at least when your dungeon's walls contain vital life support technology.
On the sci-fi campaign I'm running this was a concerns I introduced a lot of new things. With more melee technology it becomes easier to fish out more damage so ranged became normal combat and melee became rocket launcher tag, or rather atomic gravity weapon tag. In fact despite making Dex to firearm damage a feat melee damage seems to go far.
The thought occurred to me with most classes being between either shooters casters or teks won't strength be a almost useless stat for everyone? aside from being able to carry stuff (heavy guns or something) maybe throw the occasional grenade otherwise what sort of space class would really need it?
Strength will only be useless if you can reliably kill everything before it ever has any chance to close with you into melee. Given the science fantasy nature of the game's premise I highly, highly doubt that will be the case.
as long as it makes sense i'm down for it force fields that dissipate energy to stop lasers (not immunity mind you cause then your personal force field somehow negates death stars?) and i think slimes don't worry to much about axes but lasers are a different matter
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The thought occurred to me with most classes being between either shooters casters or teks won't strength be a almost useless stat for everyone? aside from being able to carry stuff (heavy guns or something) maybe throw the occasional grenade otherwise what sort of space class would really need it?
For the last two years I have been running a wild west Pathfinder campaign, and ran in to a similar issue. Everyone was high dex, no one had str. They'd run in to problems that a strong character could handle, but every single PC had a str of 10...
One day, we invited a friend who had just moved back to NYC to play with us. He made a melee character and instantly started being a force to recon with. He's get in character's faces, sometimes disarming them, forcing them in to melee. NO ONE was built for melee so, he'd win the fights.
Plus, he'd make a great distraction while fighting monsters.
In summary I think it will become LESS important, but if you've play games like Mass Effect 3 and Destiny, you know that there are a lot of way to go sci-fi close combat.
Strength may well be less important in Starfinder. I could swear that I read somewhere that there might be a high strength race that would be overpowered in Pathfinder but that would be well balanced for Starfinder.
Equip your melee characters with personal teleporters and power armour and deep strike the enemy to shreds.
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The thought occurred to me with most classes being between either shooters casters or teks won't strength be a almost useless stat for everyone? aside from being able to carry stuff (heavy guns or something) maybe throw the occasional grenade otherwise what sort of space class would really need it?
The Dex to Damage people are doing their best to obsolete the stat. They've almost succeeded.
Sure, you don't need to be strong to press keys on a console. You don't need much muscle to aim a blaster, or even to command a robot. But in every sentient being's life, there comes a time where you just need to break a few faces. Wouldn't you rather be prepared?
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Affix a tractor beam to your hammer so that when you swing it, distant enemies are dragged into it.
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Equip your melee characters with personal teleporters and power armour and deep strike the enemy to shreds.
FOR THE EMPEROR!
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Equip your melee characters with personal teleporters and power armour and deep strike the enemy to shreds.FOR THE EMPEROR!
I MEAN..... if this stuff works anything like the Sci-fi stuff from Pathfinder, you will have shield that will just eat up all the ranged fire, as you close the gap in to melee range
Adding technology to melee can be devastating in Pathfinder.
With the amount of energy damage and firearms defending against them is vital but also a gamble. getting energy resistance doesn't defend from ballistic firearms and protecting against all firearms leaves you open to melee weapon damage.
Meanwhile just the gravity clip can be brutal. A chainsaw deals 3d6. A gravity clip turns that to 4d6. Vital Strike has you throwing that at 8d6, 12d6 and 16d6. That's the suboptimal way to do it and god forbid you start crit fishing with it.
Also this is before throwing in third party stuff like my NPC monk with Atomic Gravity knuckles and flurrying with 2d8 punches that deal Con damage and radiation poisoning at level 3.
Adding technology to melee can be devastating in Pathfinder.
With the amount of energy damage and firearms defending against them is vital but also a gamble. getting energy resistance doesn't defend from ballistic firearms and protecting against all firearms leaves you open to melee weapon damage.
Meanwhile just the gravity clip can be brutal. A chainsaw deals 3d6. A gravity clip turns that to 4d6. Vital Strike has you throwing that at 8d6, 12d6 and 16d6. That's the suboptimal way to do it and god forbid you start crit fishing with it.
Also this is before throwing in third party stuff like my NPC monk with Atomic Gravity knuckles and flurrying with 2d8 punches that deal Con damage and radiation poisoning at level 3.
Have a buddy two-weapon fighting with keen kukri phaseblades and butterfly's sting.
Make heavy ranged weapons strength-based for aim instead of dex, as dex for something that heavy is almost pointless.
Even in space, you don't want to get caught in a grapple.
Make heavy ranged weapons strength-based for aim instead of dex, as dex for something that heavy is almost pointless.Don't you use dex to fire things like siege weapons?
1. YOu don't hold siege weapons, what i'm saying is that these huge gatling guns/portable torpedo cannons/uprooted swivel guns would be impossible to aim without the strength to move it to aim where you want it to (and if it shoots fast enough, dex shouldn't matter anyways since the actual aiming part won't be a concern, as the entire room in front of you is now filled with bullets).
For example, you are facing East, and a door opens to your North with a baddie behind it. If you were using a normal pistol or rifle, dex would be appropriate since they are light weapons, and can be moved easier. They rely on you aiming well enough to hit him. On the other hand, if you were using a heavy weapon that is large and bulky (and usually has a high fire-rate), you couldn't aim accurately without being able to hold it steady (strength). Moreover, in order to turn left that 90 degrees, it would take strength to both turn it, then stop turning, which is a problem with heavy weapons due to their momentum. Without a higher strength, you'd have a harder time getting it lined up to where you want to shoot.
Another example is Heavy from TF2.
makes sense <as long as strength doesn't get added to damage that would be just silly "i'm flexing my muscles at the orcs real hard while I shoot this".>
Low Gravity - A natural environment in which your strength score goes UP while all other ability scores remain the same. Also, strength can be used to run faster and lift even heavier objects in lo-grav areas.
No Gravity - Acrobatics is now useless. Jump crazy farther distances with Athletics. If projectile weapons have kick-back, then shooting causes you to move backwards
Star Ship combat - modify Pathfinder's Siege Engine rules to give weak characters penalties using heavy guns, like what lordofthemax is said.
Let's take a look at how other sci-fi games use Strength:
Fallout 4: Modify/wear power armor, carry capacity, modify melee weapons, melee damage, heavy weapon damage/accuracy, sprinting in power armor, bull rush damage, and damage resistance.
Star Wars: Lightsabers need strength for damage and heavy weapons require strength to wield (despite most jedi I've seen were dexterity builds).
Halo: Master Chief's energy sword is used for melee combat. His power armor weighs 713 pounds and requires him to be physically fit to use it.
Firefly: Big old Jayne from Firefly used heavy weapons and carried all sorts of weaponry and gear.
D&D Next: Although not sci-fi, movement speed is reduced in heavy armor if you lack the required strength score.
Developer, Starfinder Team
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Most sci-fi settings have at least one class of people engaged in melee, going waaaay back. Lensmen had Valerian space marines with space-axes. Star Trek had the Vulcan lira long before the bat'leth. B5 has the denn'bok staff. Anbdromeda has force lances (which are both melee and ranged). HALO has energy swords. And gravity hammers. And combat knives.
And then, you know, lightsabers.
Not every character, or even every combat-focused character, is going to maximize Strength. But some will, and that's fine.
In Joe Haldeman's _Forever War_ series, technology allows the creation of an anti-EM field which suppresses all electronics and energy weapons (as well as the human nervous system). The field is even capable of suppressing the effects of an external fusion bomb explosion; the suppression is so complete that you can't even tell there was an explosion until the field is switched off. The only exception seems to be the emanation of a false light effect which conveniently prevents anyone inside the field from going blind for lack of visible light.
Combatants can survive in the field wearing special protective armor. Fights quickly devolve into the use of archaic weapons: spears, swords, bows, etc., while inside the field, because nothing more advanced will function. If your suit is disabled, the anti-EM field kills you instantly.
In the presence of such technology, Strength as a useful stat becomes more obvious, even if it is little more than an excuse to recreate Pathfinder's original combat environment. On the other hand, it also justifies expending magical resources to enchant those archaic weapons versus the generally more effective modern ranged weaponry.
Most sci-fi settings have at least one class of people engaged in melee, going waaaay back. Lensmen had Valerian space marines with space-axes. Star Trek had the Vulcan lira long before the bat'leth. B5 has the denn'bok staff. Anbdromeda has force lances (which are both melee and ranged). HALO has energy swords. And gravity hammers. And combat knives.
And then, you know, lightsabers.
Not every character, or even every combat-focused character, is going to maximize Strength. But some will, and that's fine.
Many of those weapons like in particular the Vulcan Lirpa were only used in ritual combat. If it came to planetary defense, that's when phasers start coming out. Being the most intense bat'leth master doesn't do you any good when someone disintegrates you from 30 feet away.
Minimum strength requirement to use heavy guns without penalty?
This is how it's done in Traveller and at least 1 other RPG that I can't name off the top of my head.
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It seems to be a little common for futuristic settings.
I played in a short-lived Star Wars Saga system game. Ten was the highest strength in the party. The Jedi dumped his strength because Force Use is a charisma skill.
I also considered running a Serenity system game. D4 is considered average non-adventurous human in terms of a stat and d2 is the equivalent to dumping a stat down to 7 in PFS. Three characters were made for the game, that never happened, and the highest strength score was d4. Two of the characters jacked up their dexterity since guns are so spiffy.
The ill-fated Serenity game is a great example since it is based on the TV show Firefly where there was a character, Jayne Cobb, with very high strength who was extremely useful.
If the campaign being played in gets away from the typical RPG mechanic of it's a bad guy so you can kill him, strength becomes more useful.
"He tried to steal my wallet so I pulled out my gun and put a hole in him".
"You can't do that. The legal punishment for theft is not death.".
Strength becomes a little more important when you might need to punch or cold-cock someone with your gun.
The GM can put in challenges that require strength. However the problem with that is the players have set their characters in stone by the time they realize they will fail a lot of little things. If the players know ahead of time that in the campaign you can't kill everyone that might try to bust your jaw, they'll consider making characters who haven't dumped strength.
Adamantine Chainsaws need strength to wield them.
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LASERCHAINSAWS
I think best way to keep str relevant is tying it to gear.
(Power) armor needs str X to use, and minigun/rocket launcher/Gauss cannon need Str Y or you'll have -4 to fire it.
That will make Str relevant for armored guys, for heavy weapons, and for melee, tropes that sound about right.
i like it^^
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Stop coming up with more feats that make Dexterity a primary damage attribute.
I think best way to keep str relevant is tying it to gear.
(Power) armor needs str X to use, and minigun/rocket launcher/Gauss cannon need Str Y or you'll have -4 to fire it.That will make Str relevant for armored guys, for heavy weapons, and for melee, tropes that sound about right.
Makes a ton of sense. Although wouldn't wearing too heavy armor without enough strength probably should have something like armor check penalty for physical skills.