Hi,
I have a question about the Wind Oracle revelation vortex spells.
Vortex Spells (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit against an opponent with an attack spell, the target is staggered for 1 round. At 11th level, the duration increases to 1d4 rounds.
My question seems simple: when do you score a critical hit with an attack spell?
However, there are a lot of spells that could, in theory, be applicable here. For example:
- you use holy ice, which grants you one ice javelin per level; each javeling has a chance of scoring a critical
- you use blinding ray; even if you don't roll for damage, you still get to check for a critical hit to stagger the victim(s)
- you use chain of perdition; even if you don't deal damage, you still have a chance of staggering your foe
- you use spiritual weapon; whenever it hits, the staggering effect is applied
- you use spiritual ally; every time he scores a critical, the staggering effect is applied
- you use instrument of agony; when you score a critical hit with your enchanted weapon, you also stagger your opponent
Which of these would you consider correct? Can you think of other spells that may be problematic candidates for spell vortex to apply?
Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.
Any time you make an attack roll as part of spell you can crit on a natural 20. So any spell with an attack roll is a valid Vortex Spell
With the exception of Spellstrike, attack spells generally only threaten critical hits on a natural 20. Don't forget that you actually have to confirm the critical hit to get the effect. (So nat 20 followed by roll that confirms hit).
With the exception of Spellstrike, attack spells generally only threaten critical hits on a natural 20. Don't forget that you actually have to confirm the critical hit to get the effect. (So nat 20 followed by roll that confirms hit).
I know this.
What I was wondering about is how far one could stretch the revelation's 'prerequisite': that you must score a critical hit with an attack spell. When would you say that the spell scores a critical hit?
For example, if I use dimensional blade on my scimitar, and next score a critical hit with that blade, would you say that the spell had scored a critical hit?
Or, if I summon a rhinoceros, and it scores a critical hit against an opponent, would you say that the spell had scored a critical hit?
I mentioned a few other corner cases in my opening post. How would you rule in these cases? Again: when would you consider the condition fulfilled?
Regards,
Kroisos.
Like i said, if the spell has an attack roll included in it's description its a valid Vortex Spell. if the casting of the spell doesnt include an attack roll then it is not a valid Vortex Spell.
I think I understand now...
I agree with Ridiculon. Spells that create a weapon or creature probably don't qualify. The spell isn't an "attack" spell. It creates something you attack with. If the spell specifies you make an attack roll, then it probably qualifies. If it doesn't say for you to make an attack with the spell, it probably doesn't.
Summoned creatures and spell-enhanced items you attack with aren't qualified, only spells which require an attack roll to work.
The effect of a summoning spell is to bring a creature into existence. It does not require you to make an attack roll to work.
The effect of dimensional blade is to alter your weapon, it also doesn't require an attack roll. What you do with the enchanted weapon doesn't matter. And if you use it for attacking, it is with the weapon, not the spell upon it.
Polar ray requires you to make an attack roll, it doesn't even work unless you hit something with it, so it would qualify.
On a side-note, there is evidence that even a multi-missile spell would apply the vortex only on the first missile (miss or hit). I am too lazy to look it up in the rules right now. But a wizard (evoker) can apply his bonus damage only to the first missile of a multiple spell. And I believe there was something about how often an effect can be applied (only once usually).
On a side-note, there is evidence that even a multi-missile spell would apply the vortex only on the first missile (miss or hit). I am too lazy to look it up in the rules right now. But a wizard (evoker) can apply his bonus damage only to the first missile of a multiple spell. And I believe there was something about how often an effect can be applied (only once usually).
I would be very interested to see a source for this...
Kroisos
I think I understand now...
I agree with Ridiculon. Spells that create a weapon or creature probably don't qualify. The spell isn't an "attack" spell. It creates something you attack with. If the spell specifies you make an attack roll, then it probably qualifies. If it doesn't say for you to make an attack with the spell, it probably doesn't.
How about holy ice? It is transformation, not conjuration. Still, it creates javelins to hurl, and it describes how to roll your dice.
Now, does the spell require attack rolls, or do the javelin require attack rolls?
Kroisos
The source for what I mentioned is Intense Spells in the CRB under the wizard school features for the evoker. You get to add the bonus only once per spell and only on one missile or rounds it is in effect if it has several. It can also not be split up between missiles.
I am still too lazy to dig through all the books :) (Even if it is probably in the first ones.)
I think I understand now...
I agree with Ridiculon. Spells that create a weapon or creature probably don't qualify. The spell isn't an "attack" spell. It creates something you attack with. If the spell specifies you make an attack roll, then it probably qualifies. If it doesn't say for you to make an attack with the spell, it probably doesn't.
How about holy ice? It is transformation, not conjuration. Still, it creates javelins to hurl, and it describes how to roll your dice.
Now, does the spell require attack rolls, or do the javelin require attack rolls?
Kroisos
It's not entirely clear. I lean towards no though, but for what its worth I always lean towards no when things are unclear.
It works for holy ice, the description kind of throws it off but in practice its identical to acid splash and you can spell-crit with it. The main thing to keep track of is whether or not the spell creates something that you then have to pick up and use. If you have to use it after casting the spell then you will not be criting with the spell itself, rather you will be getting a normal crit with a weapon that just happens to have not existed 6 seconds ago.
Holy Ice 'creates javelins' yes, but they are acting just like a multi-target spell effect, note that they 'hurl themselves' instead of you having to pick them up and aim and throw each one.