So I really dig the Tortured Crusader from Horror Adventures and want to build one as my next PFS character. It's essentially a WIS based Order of Vengance Paladin which gains a few other perks such as being able to set up Lay on Hands on specific triggers and 4+INT skill points with an expanded class skill list. Here's what I got up until now:
STR 16 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 5
Traits
?Fate’s Favored?/Lessons of Chalidra/Fast Drinker
Glory of Old
Feats
1 TWF
3 Extra Lay on Hands
5 Ability Mastery (+2 Enhancement to STR)
7 Improved TWF
9 Power Attack
11 ???
The idea is to TWF with a Dwarven Waraxe in one hand and a Cestus in the other and rock the full plate. This combination allows me to two hand my axe (sadly I can't pick up PA till very late) and to Lay on Hands to heal. I'll have to pick up a DEX belt by level 7 to qualify for ITWF (I don't think ability mastery will work for that sadly).
I'm really looking for Advice on Spells, Mercies and possibilities for multiclassing. I could easily move around some points on the point buy to make Unsanctioned Knowledge available but I didn't see any spells I really wanted.
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I'm assuming you're playing a Dwarf?
For Unsanctioned Knowledge Expeditious Retreat might be nice.
Instante Weapon would help with ghosts.
Oh yeah obviously a Dwarf. Forgot to mention that. Feels like that's the way to go with this archetype even though Dwarves aren't perfectly suited to TWF.
It also occured to me that with the mercy that removes staggered I could utilize this trickassuming I can get my hands on a familiar. Hmm maybe with a dip into Bloodrager...
All the spells you recommend are good but with so few feats available and the points better spent on WIS I don't really want to go that route.
So what do folks think about Fate's Favored on Paladins? I'm not sure I'll have the time to cast Divine Favor on a regular basis so it might not be that great...
I have a level 5 paladin, I haven't used a spell in combat. I find it hard to view a 1 minute buff being all that useful, even for +2/+2.
I have a level 5 paladin, I haven't used a spell in combat. I find it hard to view a 1 minute buff being all that useful, even for +2/+2.
That's what I was afraid of it'll prolly only work when I have time to pre buff... so what spells do you use?
I would recommend a two-level dip in fighter. TWF doesn't really take too much to accomplish, but as a Paladin that is a lot of resources.
I would recommend a two-level dip in fighter. TWF doesn't really take too much to accomplish, but as a Paladin that is a lot of resources.
So how does delaying spells, class abilities and saves for two feats help this build? As you said TWF doesn't take too much to accomplish (essentially 2 feats) and some odd choices on the stat array.
Dual Enhancement feat.
Is Ability Mastery really worth a feat slot when it doesn't stack with other enhancement?
One potential multiclass option, given what your build uses, would be to go with a level of Unchained Monk and pick up Dragon Style. Instead of a Cestus that gets .5xSTR and 1:1 Power Attack, your unarmed strike would get 1.5xSTR and 1:2 Power Attack; a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes would work for enhancement. You also get free Dodge and a few other little bonuses.
Dual Enhancement feat.
Is Ability Mastery really worth a feat slot when it doesn't stack with other enhancement?
One potential multiclass option, given what your build uses, would be to go with a level of Unchained Monk and pick up Dragon Style. Instead of a Cestus that gets .5xSTR and 1:1 Power Attack, your unarmed strike would get 1.5xSTR and 1:2 Power Attack; a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes would work for enhancement. You also get free Dodge and a few other little bonuses.
Dual Enhancement looks good. I'm not sure whether I'll be using divine Bond often enough as it needs a standard action to activate and thus suffers from the same issues as Divine Favor. Then again it last for minutes per level. I will note this for my planned Living Grimoire Build for sure however...
Thing about Ability Mastery is that I was planning to get a DEX belt to qualify for ITWF. That means I can't get a STR belt so that's where ability Mastery comes in. It would be way more useful if Ability Mastery would allow me to qualify for ITWF but I don't think that will work out.
I've also thought about an Unchained Monk dip. And there's a lot of synergy between the two classes. I'd just rely on two handing a Sansetsukon and invest more points into WIS and STR. However I'd be moving away from my mental image of the character. A grizzled old Dwarf with heavy armor and a big axe. However seeing that the Tortured Crusader gets UMD as a class skill and Crane Style becomes and option, a bare chested Dwarf might be superior to one in a full plate. I'll have to try my hand at a sample build.
A +2STR/+2DEX belt is actually pretty cheap.
You don't need to change the concept to use a Sansetsukon and no armor; you can just take the huge bonus to offhand damage and go for an armored axe-wielder. You can also dip a level of Brawler or Master of Many Styles for the same purpose, but Unchained Monk doesn't lose any BAB and gains free +1AC so it seems like the best grab.
You know, if you want an axe-berserker, there's always going Paladin of Angradd with one level of Unchained Monk and picking up Crusader's Flurry: Greataxe. There's something about flurry with greataxes, greatswords or scythes that always makes me grin like an idiot.
A +2STR/+2DEX belt is actually pretty cheap.
You don't need to change the concept to use a Sansetsukon and no armor; you can just take the huge bonus to offhand damage and go for an armored axe-wielder. You can also dip a level of Brawler or Master of Many Styles for the same purpose, but Unchained Monk doesn't lose any BAB and gains free +1AC so it seems like the best grab.
You know, if you want an axe-berserker, there's always going Paladin of Angradd with one level of Unchained Monk and picking up Crusader's Flurry: Greataxe. There's something about flurry with greataxes, greatswords or scythes that always makes me grin like an idiot.
A +2 STR/+2 DEX Belt is 16k and not really afordable at level 7 in PFS.
Hmm... hadn't thunked about Monk or Dragon style that way. Unarmed Fighter would also work here. However as my STR isn't all that great and most of my damage actually comes from smite it's not that strong here.
Also since the archetype looses channel energy no Greataxe Flurry...
Here's a Crane Style Sansetsukon Flurry version. It's AC with Mage armor is actually better than the Single Class Pally with Full Plate and the Damage output is also superior but it delays class abilities a bit.
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA 5
Traits
Glory of Old/Fast Drinker
1 Dodge Crane Style
3 Power Attack
5 Extra Lay on Hands
7 Steel Soul
9 Imp. Critical
11 ???
Isn't a Belt of Physical Might 10k?
Actually, come to think of it, if you have a level of Unchained Monk Dragon Style is pretty unimportant. Unarmed Fighter doesn't get the Monk Unarmed Strike feature, so it doesn't automatically get full strength and Power Attack on all offhands the way the Monk does. Early on, the difference between something like a 1d4+3 cestus and 1d6+5 fist is major. Later on, even if strength is only 20 at level 9, the difference between a cestus doing +2STR/+3PA on each attack and an unarmed strike doing +5STR/+6PA (or a tiny bit more with Dragon) is still noticeable even with Smite going, and enormous without it.
The sansetsukon flurry certainly works, but I don't think the damage is much different from using axe/fist if there's a level of Monk in there. At 9, it would be something like ~35x3 = 105 vs 28x3,26x2 = 106 with Smite running. Haste tips damage in favor of flurry, but any other buffs tip it in favor of TWF.
This is departing from your original concept, but you could also go normal Paladin and use Crusader's Flurry. Using Sohei means you can flurry in mithral medium armor.
If you were going for the nonmonk, I might advise these stats:
16/16/14/10/14/5
Basically, use your 20 points in str/dex, and use the points from cha dump and your racials to get decent con/wis.
16 is a more useful number for TWF. Besides the extra bonuses, it is also just a short +1 away from qualifying for ALL of the good TWF feats. The only one that needs more than a 17 is greater TWF, adn that just a BAB-12 hit. Easy to skip. And that 1 point of dex can easily come from the 4th level ability score adjustment.
So overall, you can easily get a dex score that you can just forget about entirely after level 4. Little need to seek out more dex than that. No need for a dex belt. Just grab a physical belt, and go to town.
Hmm guess I was wrong on the Belt of Physical Might... however I still won't be able to buy 10k items at level 7 in PFS.
@Lemeres: I had initially planned that stat spread and it would work out pretty well. My only issue is that the level 8 increase is basically wasted. Also since I was planning on going fullplate I don't get any reward out of extra dex. The buid could easily do with 14 WIS so it's definetly an option.
I'm a bit sad that going with the Monk dip seems to be much stronger than single class Paladin as I really want to rock the heavy armor.
I've also been debating the merrits of Imp. Shield Bash and a light Shield. However that wouldn't allow me to two hand my axe when needed.
There's really no reason you can't go with a Monk dip to power-up your offhand and then go heavy armor axe-and-fist TWF.
It puts up very competitive damage numbers with a full strength punch, involves way less messing around to get a solid defense, and has a great flavor to it. Plus if you want to, you can easily pick up a shield and still make your offhand unarmed strikes just fine.
@Lemeres: I had initially planned that stat spread and it would work out pretty well. My only issue is that the level 8 increase is basically wasted. Also since I was planning on going fullplate I don't get any reward out of extra dex. The buid could easily do with 14 WIS so it's definetly an option.
Certainly cheaper to buy a single stat headband and belt than a two stat belt. That is 2,000 lower.
So you could end up with the same general result, but for a lower price.
There's really no reason you can't go with a Monk dip to power-up your offhand and then go heavy armor axe-and-fist TWF.
Well the unarmed strike also has a poorer crit range (very relevant as one of my class features has keen built in) and is more costly to enchant. Dragon Style requires a swift action to activate (so does Smite) and only works on the first attack, as does the body wrap. So honestly I'm not sure if it would be an improvement over the cestus seeing that this build is super dependent on smiting (and at level 9 gets up to 9 smites per day).
Here's what I have for a single class Paladin with TWF.
Dwarf Tortured Crusader
STR 16 (Stat belt here) DEX 16 (level increases here) CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 (Headband here) CHA 5
Traits
Lessons of Chalidra/Fast Drinker
Glory of Old
Feats
1 TWF
3 Extra Lay on Hands
5 Dual Enhancement
7 Improved TWF
9 Power Attack
11 Extra Lay on Hands
While lessons of Chalidra is prolly by far the most powerful trait available (considering my saves should be pretty good and I normally won't be failing too many), praying to some halfling godess seems a bit cheesy :(
Another option is to dip Bloodrager (prolly Urban) at 7 to get my pounce on with a familiar, via stick together and Valet Familiar and use LoH to remove the staggered condition. This build would prolly end up using a breastplate for fast movement.
Dwarf Tortured Crusader
STR 16 (Stat belt here) DEX 16 (level increases here) CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 (Headband here) CHA 5
Traits
Lessons of Chalidra/Fast Drinker
Glory of Old
Feats
1 TWF
3 Extra Lay on Hands (Retrain to Extra Rage)
5 Stick Together
7 Improved TWF
9 Dual enhancement
11 Extra Lay on Hands
I'm also debating whether a simple two handed build (sans dip) might be the more solid option. Also quickdraw Light shield plus Quickdraw might make Sword and Board viable later on.
Come to think of it at higher levels (once smite is always on) I could also consider picking up Quickdraw and going with two Waraxes and suck up the -4 penalties. That would be greedy but also kinda awesome...
The bonuses from Monk Unarmed Strike are the major upgrade, rather than Dragon. A 10% difference in crit chance is worth maybe 6% more total damage, so even factoring that in it's still around 40% more damage to use Monk Unarmed instead of cestus. Whether that's worth a level dip is up to you, but it's at least a major bonus.
Dragon Style would only really come into play if Dragon Ferocity was making offhands 2xSTR/1.5xSTR and making all crits cause shaken; in that case, your unarmed strike offhands do at least as much damage as the mainhand axe.
Damage-wise, TWF and mid-to-high-level Smite will generally beat a two-hander for the simple fact that adding twice as much Smite damage to the overall DPR is just huge.
Damage-wise, TWF and mid-to-high-level Smite will generally beat a two-hander for the simple fact that adding twice as much Smite damage to the overall DPR is just huge.
Hmm maybe I should also consider a straight up unarmed TWF with a monk dip then... gonna have to do some number crunshing later today...
Damage-wise, TWF and mid-to-high-level Smite will generally beat a two-hander for the simple fact that adding twice as much Smite damage to the overall DPR is just huge.Hmm maybe I should also consider a straight up unarmed TWF with a monk dip then... gonna have to do some number crunshing later today...
The thing about going straight unarmed is that you can't use a Bodywrap of Mighty Striking anymore; instead, you're stuck using neck slot and Mighty Fists amulet. Price-wise, going with something like Body Wrap +1 and Axe +2 is quite a bit cheaper than AoMF +2, so you can still afford as well as use a natural armor amulet, and your primary weapon is just as good (better when counting crits). Plus the theme is a lot cooler.
Of course if you were to go "full unarmed", then there's nothing preventing you from also carrying a reach weapon like a dwarven longhammer at the same time to make standard/AoO attacks with the reach weapon and then go "haft-punch" style TWF for full attacks.
Having the one handed weapon just gives you more options overall. You can 2 hand when you charge, you can TWF when you full attack... you can have special materials for when you can't smite and just ignore DR....
anyway, I think the main reason why he was advocating monk dip for unarmed attacks is beause monks (At least core monks) come with a strange rule when it comes to their unarmed attacks. The class both gives the feat improved unarmed strike, and it also include a rule saying that your unarmed strikes don't suffer from off hand attack problems.
This is separate from flurry, and doesn't affect the monk too much because flurry. But with a dip, it means you can make the unarmed strike an offhand attack, but it would still get x1 str/power attack, rather than x0.5. So, at level 8 (wait, 9, due to monk dip?), with 18 str and power attack, this results in an extra 5 damage on the offhand strike.
But that comes at the cost a paladin level (which can eat into your damage, and other class abilities), a more expensive upgrade path (if only by x0.5 the cost of a normal magic weapon), and more trouble with DR on things like golems.
Currently I hadn't included PA until level 9. This is mainly because Power attack doesn't do a lot for TWF DPR. It would be much better if the off hand weapon is my fist. Also PA is really important for when I'm making single two handed attacks which was kinda the whole point of the Dwarven Waraxe.
However as the DPR from a flurrying Monk with a two handed weapon is much better than the TWF DPR and is way more efficient in terms of Stat allocation, equipment and feats while not having notably worse defenses.
Another approach I've read about in threads on Oath of Vengance Paladins is to only take 4 levels of Paladin and then take Extra Lay on hands to get more smites (assuming 14 WIS I'd have 3 smites per day at level 4 anyhow which are worth +4 to hit damage and AC). This would also work in conjunction with Monk for example.
Well, just remember- brawlers also have 2 handed flurries, and they can also upgrade their flurries with normal TWF feats (since their flurry explicitly counts as TWF).
A two level dip into brawler could allow for an easily armored flurry. Brawlers can even go with a mithral breast plate (the mobile armor of choice). Although I don't think any of the brawler's abilities that come up at level 2 are actually affected by heavy armor...
Yeah but brawler doesn't get 1 1/2 STR, but it does get more PA damage. But I think the combination of DEX+WIS+Mage Armor+ Smite+Crane Style+ Sansetsukon really makes for better AC than a build with breastplate. When smiting at Level 2 you have 28 AC or something such. It is hard to increase with Gold however.
So some Stat comparisons at level 9
Sansetsukon
Single Attack 38 DPR
Full Attack 108 DPR
AC 30 (No spell buffs)
TWF build Axe + Cestus
Single Attack 32 DPR
Full Attack 78 DPR
AC 27 (No spell buffs)
Kinda disapointing how much better the Monk Dip ends up being...
Another option would be to go with a level of Blood Conduit Bloodrager with the Draconic Bloodline, cap at 15DEX and just base TWF, and make a TWF full attack with a Furious axe and Furious Body Wrap that goes axe -2/ unarmed -2/ axe -7/ claw -5 (Body Wrap enhances both claw and unarmed by level 6). Focusing on strength with Bloodrage and Furious weapons is a pretty substantial boost; and of course, Paladins can use Mercies to remove any Rage fatigue, making it pretty painless to switch off.
Something like: 16STR(+levels/+item/+rage), 15DEX, 12/14CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 5CHA
1.TWF / +IUS
3.Extra Rage
5.Dragon Style
7.Power Attack
With Rage and Furious weapons, your axe and unarmed come down heavy and the claw is solid... and that's even before adding Smite.
That 3K Furios Body Wrap is a rather stellar investment I must admit. As I was heavily debating a Bloodrager dip (for the familiar)anyways I'm gona have to try this out. What really bothers me though is the swift action activation on Dragon Style.
Dwarf Tortured Crusader 10/ Bloody Knuckled Rowdy 1
16STR(+levels/+item/+rage), 15DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 16WIS, 5CHA
Traits
Adopted (Toothy)
Community Minded
1.TWF, IUS
3.Dragon Style
5.Extra Rage
7.Stick together
9. Power Attack
11. Dual Enhancement
This Build does 105 DPR on a full attack and 39 on a standard attack. However from level 7 onward it gets a reliable pounce mechanism from Stick Together and Valet Bloodline Familiar.
Doesn't the staggered condition from Stick Together ruin using it for "pounce"?
Doesn't the staggered condition from Stick Together ruin using it for "pounce"?
At level 7 you can remove staggered via lay on hands. However the swift action economy of this build doesn't really work out too well due to Smite, Dragon Style, Stick Together and Lay on Hands. It's probably pushing it a bit too much.
My idea for this archetype is to take a level of monk, a level of urban bloodrager and get a familiar, and then the rest paladin.
You get flurry with a weapon, rage for generic combats, and then paladin awesomeness. Also the bloodrager dip lets you use wands of mage armor. Take the extra rage feat and boon companion with a protector, leaves lv1 or lv3 feat open for power attack. Or go id bloodrager anger and get power attack while you rage, meaning you only need to take extra rage feat and all other feats are free for whatever. like to worship irori and take his divine obedience and become a knowledge guy paladin!
I would recommend a two-level dip in fighter. TWF doesn't really take too much to accomplish, but as a Paladin that is a lot of resources.So how does delaying spells, class abilities and saves for two feats help this build? As you said TWF doesn't take too much to accomplish (essentially 2 feats) and some odd choices on the stat array.
The Tempered Champion is eschewing spells altogether.
The Tempered Champion is eschewing spells altogether.I would recommend a two-level dip in fighter. TWF doesn't really take too much to accomplish, but as a Paladin that is a lot of resources.So how does delaying spells, class abilities and saves for two feats help this build? As you said TWF doesn't take too much to accomplish (essentially 2 feats) and some odd choices on the stat array.
Nobody is talking about the tempered champion.
The OP is talking about the new Tortured Crusader paladin.
My idea for this archetype is to take a level of monk, a level of urban bloodrager and get a familiar, and then the rest paladin.
You get flurry with a weapon, rage for generic combats, and then paladin awesomeness. Also the bloodrager dip lets you use wands of mage armor. Take the extra rage feat and boon companion with a protector, leaves lv1 or lv3 feat open for power attack. Or go id bloodrager anger and get power attack while you rage, meaning you only need to take extra rage feat and all other feats are free for whatever. like to worship irori and take his divine obedience and become a knowledge guy paladin!
I've been trying to decide between monk and bloodrager dip. But you're prolly right that dipping one level of both prolly offers the best end result. Prolly Dip Monk at level 2 and dip Bloodrager at 6 once you can burn LoH for extra Smites. The tortured Crusader has UMD so you can use wands from first level onwards.
I kinda want to make Crane Style happen. But it might not be necessary at all...gotta decide on this quickly as I have a game which starts today...
I'd go bloodrager and monk first. Then your combat is covered until you get your extra smites. The bloodrager dip seems less important if you're already able to smite everyone you fight.
Still probably worth it, just seems less useful than getting it sooner.
Doesn't the staggered condition from Stick Together ruin using it for "pounce"?At level 7 you can remove staggered via lay on hands. However the swift action economy of this build doesn't really work out too well due to Smite, Dragon Style, Stick Together and Lay on Hands. It's probably pushing it a bit too much.
All things considered, if I was running around pseudo-pouncing through a teamwork familiar + condition removal trick like that, I'd be putting out a major life insurance policy on that familiar unless the GM was a Buddhist saint.
All things considered, if I was running around pseudo-pouncing through a teamwork familiar + condition removal trick like that, I'd be putting out a major life insurance policy on that familiar unless the GM was a Buddhist saint.Doesn't the staggered condition from Stick Together ruin using it for "pounce"?At level 7 you can remove staggered via lay on hands. However the swift action economy of this build doesn't really work out too well due to Smite, Dragon Style, Stick Together and Lay on Hands. It's probably pushing it a bit too much.
New familiars are 200GP a pop ;)
I was thinking more of the annoyance of building for a trick that's so easily disabled. It's not so much the 200gp, it's the 'spend 8 hours one week later' cost and timing. One week is a long time to wait if the GM decides something is gonna make an easy meal of your familiar on day 1. And even longer to wait if the same thing happens again...