Rogues Edge 15 Stealth with Bow and vs Uncanny Dodge

[Acurn]

1. I was wondering if with rouges edge 15 stealth if using a bow in-between each shot would the person I am attacking get a DC 25 perception check so they are not denied Dex bonus. I currently think that it does not but my friends think otherwise. This is because with rouges edge 15 stealth states that if you succeed on a stealth check then the target is denied Dex bonus until the end of your turn which this makes me believe that it is regardless of any other perception check.

2. My next question is can rouges edge 15 stealth beat uncanny dodge? I think that it does because if I do not use invisibility and I succeed on a stealth check then they are denied Dex bonus from a single attack normally so rouges edge 15 lets me full round sneak attack if I succeed on a stealth check without invisibility.

3. My third question is can you beat uncanny dodge with invisibility + a stealth role. I currently think you cannot but my friends think otherwise. The way I see it is you can use stealth to be uncanny dodge because it doesn’t state that you can’t but if you use both invisibility and stealth then you are clearly using invisibility so it wouldn’t work.
______________________________________________________________________

Rouges Edge Stealth
With sufficient ranks in Stealth, you earn the following.

5 Ranks: Reduce the Stealth penalty from sniping by 10.

10 Ranks: Stealth check penalties for moving quickly are halved, including the ability unlocked at 5 ranks, moving full speed, and reaching concealment after creating a distraction.

15 Ranks: If you attack after successfully using Stealth, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus against all attacks that you make before the end of your turn.

20 Ranks: If you attack after successfully using Stealth, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus against all attacks that you make before the beginning of your next turn.

Hear a bow being drawn DC 25 Perception

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

[Cavall]

Against all attacks seems clear.

[Acurn]

Can you clarify what against all attacks seems clear means?

[Cavall]

Fine.

You've got a skill unlock. It says at 15 ranks (ranks not skill total) then if you make a stealth check, ALL attacks until end of turn are made while denying a target dex.

It is clear. ALL attacks. Even if you are firing and the person knows that. Hears that. All they know is the approximate area. You made your stealth check. That's it. Your skill edge ability gives you the power to deny them anymore than that.

Your friend is wrong.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

I don't think the uncanny dodge question is clear at all. Essentially rogue's edge permits a physical form of invisibility. Uncanny dodge is not a magical ability, so has nothing to do with specifically detecting magical invisibility, I do not think this would get around uncanny dodge; but admit it's unclear.

[Acurn]

Thanks for the clarification. Anyone else agree with both Cavall and I. Also I still need answers to the following:

2. My next question is can rouges edge 15 stealth beat uncanny dodge? I think that it does because if I do not use invisibility and I succeed on a stealth check then they are denied Dex bonus from a single attack normally so rouges edge 15 lets me full round sneak attack if I succeed on a stealth check without invisibility.

3. My third question is can you beat uncanny dodge with invisibility + a stealth role. I currently think you cannot but my friends think otherwise. The way I see it is you can use stealth to be uncanny dodge because it doesn’t state that you can’t but if you use both invisibility and stealth then you are clearly using invisibility so it wouldn’t work.

[Acurn]

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

I don't think the uncanny dodge question is clear at all. Essentially rogue's edge permits a physical form of invisibility. Uncanny dodge is not a magical ability, so has nothing to do with specifically detecting magical invisibility, I do not think this would get around uncanny dodge; but admit it's unclear.

I think that it might because uncanny dodge states invisibility and not stealth but thanks for the input.

[Acurn]

Anyone else got any ideas on how this stuff works?

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Acurn wrote:

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

I don't think the uncanny dodge question is clear at all. Essentially rogue's edge permits a physical form of invisibility. Uncanny dodge is not a magical ability, so has nothing to do with specifically detecting magical invisibility, I do not think this would get around uncanny dodge; but admit it's unclear.

I think that it might because uncanny dodge states invisibility and not stealth but thanks for the input.

I think you ignored my exact point. There is no difference between invisibility and stealthing in this case. Uncanny dodge is an (ex) ability, so there's no argument that it's a divination ability or illusion piercing. I get that it says "invisibility", but for the purposes of uncanny dodge I see absolutely no way in way in which this form of stealth and invisibility are distinct.

[Acurn]

I see where your coming from and you might be right. I think that invisibility and stealth are different in the fact that invisibility uses its self as its own concealment while using stealth requires a different form of cover or concealment which is the difference. Also invisibility makes it hard to visually see you while regular stealth does as well but also attempts to make it harder to be heard. Uncanny dodge defiantly needs a errata because there is also a grey area with shatter defenses.

[Acurn]

Note that my 3rd question had a typo it is supposed to be the following:
3. My third question is can you beat uncanny dodge with invisibility + a stealth role. I currently think you cannot but my friends think otherwise. The way I see it is you can use stealth to beat uncanny dodge because it doesn’t state that you can’t but if you use both invisibility and stealth then you are clearly using invisibility so it wouldn’t work.

[Cavall]

I do believe you can feint them, that's about it.

I'm only sure on the first bit. Can't help the rest

[ShieldLawrence]

Uncanny Dodge only does what it says it does, which is protecting the character from the flat-footed condition and from invisible opponents. I know many GMs however that extend that to stealthing opponents and to when your character is blind.

[Diego Rossi]

Acurn wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. Anyone else agree with both Cavall and I. Also I still need answers to the following:

2. My next question is can rouges edge 15 stealth beat uncanny dodge? I think that it does because if I do not use invisibility and I succeed on a stealth check then they are denied Dex bonus from a single attack normally so rouges edge 15 lets me full round sneak attack if I succeed on a stealth check without invisibility.

3. My third question is can you beat uncanny dodge with invisibility + a stealth role. I currently think you cannot but my friends think otherwise. The way I see it is you can use stealth to be uncanny dodge because it doesn’t state that you can’t but if you use both invisibility and stealth then you are clearly using invisibility so it wouldn’t work.

Stealth is complicated, Paizo has tried to clarify it (there was a blog and a playtest/discussion thread, but so far hasn't found a way to explain how it work that don't require several pages and can still be messed by some new rule or interpretation.

My position is that Stealth give you total concealment, the same as invisibility, and uncanny dodge is meant to work against total concealment, not only invisibility, but that is my interpretation, I don't recall any rule or a FAQ saying that .

[CBDunkerson]

Diego Rossi wrote:

My position is that Stealth give you total concealment, the same as invisibility, and uncanny dodge is meant to work against total concealment, not only invisibility, but that is my interpretation, I don't recall any rule or a FAQ saying that .

"Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment."

P.S. Ah, I'm guessing the 'my interpretation' part is the Uncanny Dodge. Yeah, that seems clear to me, but is not explicitly stated anywhere that I know of.

[Acurn]

Thanks for the responses so far. It seems like most people think that stealth does not work vs uncanny dodge which does seem reasonable. But does anyone have any proof that it works that way?

[Shifty]

Invisible opponent means an opponent that is not visible - not an opponent that is subject to an invisibility spell.

You are over reading the information.

[ShieldLawrence]

Shifty wrote:

Invisible opponent means an opponent that is not visible - not an opponent that is subject to an invisibility spell.

You are over reading the information.

Invisible is a defined game term that is literally only for invisible things, whether it's a spell or other ability.

[Acurn]

Invisibility makes you visibly undetectable while stealth makes you harder to be seen and not able to be detected by noise on a passed check.

[Shifty]

Then it would have been capitalised I, not lower case i.

Otherwise we could not 'make haste to the tavern' without a level 5 Wizard.

[Gwen Smith]

There are a couple of key word in Uncanny Dodge that can cause you table variation:
"She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her."

The use of the word “still” can imply that these are the only ways that the a character with uncanny dodge can lose their dex bonus to AC.

There are several ways for characters to lose their Dex bonus outside of invisibility, immobility, and feint. If the developers intended for uncanny dodge to only work against invisibility, they could have stopped after the second sentence, or they could have used more generic wording like “…can still lose their Dex bonus to AC in other ways” or used some wording like “such as” or “for example” or something. They didn’t. They called out two specific instances as exceptions.

As always, ask your GM how they would rule this.

[My Self]

Shifty wrote:

Then it would have been capitalised I, not lower case i.

Otherwise we could not 'make haste to the tavern' without a level 5 Wizard.

And you cannot wish for anything without paying 25000 gp upfront... and miracles never happen, except when cast by high-level Clerics. And there is no silence without Bards or divine casters.

[ShieldLawrence]

Shifty wrote:

Then it would have been capitalised I, not lower case i.

Otherwise we could not 'make haste to the tavern' without a level 5 Wizard.

Still no. Check p. 567 of the Core Rulebook for what invisibility is in Pathfinder.

Quote:

Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a sighted opponent, and ignores its opponent’s Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.

The definition also includes the lower cased "I". If the rules similarly referenced a "hasted" opponent it would refer to the spell haste. Players casually using another context of "haste" doesn't play into what is/isn't in the rules.

@Gwen Smith: I don't believe the developers intended Uncanny Dodge to prevent you from losing DEX during climbing and acrobatics across narrow surfaces. The use of still doesn't suggest that those are the only ways to bypass it, just a reminder to players that those combat methods still work.

[Acurn]

Shifty wrote:

Invisible opponent means an opponent that is not visible - not an opponent that is subject to an invisibility spell.

You are over reading the information.

An invisible target gets a +2 to hit. This is not the case with stealth as it does not grant a +2 to hit therefore they are different so stealth should work vs uncanny dodge since it does not state it. This means my rouges edge 15 should also work. On top of the rogues edge 15 stealth states that "successfully using Stealth" makes it so that your opponent is denied their dexterity bonus to all of your attacks until the end of your turn. In my eyes if you successfully use stealth it means your opponent cant find you. This means if anyone including someone with uncanny dodge cannot find you then they are denied their dexterity bonus.