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My longterm group/friends have enjoyed the Oriental Adventures/Kara-Tur setting, but the one non-European-ish setting that really captured us for a long time was the Al-Qadim setting of Zakhara, which is fairly impressive since Disney's Aladdin is about the only exposure to Arabian/Persian fantasy we generally get here in America.
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[rant]I love it when people throw around the term racism when what they are actually describing is called "prejudice" and/or "stereotyping"... I'm sick of that word being used incorrectly... Racism indicates an intent to make the other race seen inferior to others, if what someone is doing is not done specifically with the intent of demeaning another race then its stereotyping or prejudice.[/rant]Full Definition of racism
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: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race2
: racial prejudice or discrimination
Neither of which actually describes creating an insufficiently accurate Native American-influenced RPG setting, or for that matter, failing to clearly distinguish among different sources, or "treat[ing] Native American as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of postcontact baggage."
I think the inherent difference is their has been a long pop culture tradition to treat Native American as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of postcontact baggage.And thank you for so eloquently proving my point. As I wrote earlier, "the effect is that if I want my rogue to be wearing 11th century leather armor and carrying a 16th century French rapier on his way to slay a 19th century Balkan vampire in a British opera cloak, that's fine, but..." I guess I'm in trouble if I do an amalgam of different Native American cultures.
I consider that to be a much more damaging and racist attitude from the people ostensibly concerned about it. Evidently Cherokee are such precious, fragile, snowflakes that they will be eternally damaged if someone accidentally spills some Navajo on them?
And there hasn't been a long pop culture tradition to treat medieval Europe as a monolithic block, without realizing the cultural diversity, and bringing in a lot of post-medieval baggage?
Bullfrog.
If you think that's the case.... all right, tell me, where was Cinderella from? For bonus points, when was she from? --- and the answer to THAT one isn't compatible with the answer to the previous question. And you basically need a Ph.D. in folklore to answer either one. That's practically the definition of treating medieval Europe as a monolithic block.
And every document ever written by Paizo is an exercise in post-contact baggage, largely because modern audiences won't put up with the sexism in Disney's Snow White, let alone the original versions.
Again, it's a racist double standard promulgated largely by people in the name of ending racism, which is only slightly less sensible than fornication in the name of chastity.
Ah yes the "we shouldn't care about stereotyping/racism towards this particular group, until all stereotyping everywhere is addressed" argument, which is a pretty lame excuse. That argument really means we should never do anything about any problem.
As for differences in stereotyping between medieval Europe and Native North Americans, they are not comparable situations.
The degree of cultural divergence of western European nations is not as extreme as between such different groups as the Cherokee, Navajo, and Sioux. Overall, late Medieval Western Europe shared the same level and style of technology and art, the same religion, similar political institutions, and in many cases common major historical events that influenced later generations. The same is not remotely true of most of the different Native American groups.
There is also a pretty huge difference in how the most of the western European nations have fared versus the Native American ones. France, Germany, and Britain have had there ups and downs over the years, but have mostly weathered the last few centuries pretty well. In contrast, entire Native American civilizations have been snuffed out by disease and war, they have been isolated onto reservations, been deprived of basic human rights, have suffered active campaigns aimed at stamping out their culture and many of them still deal with crippling poverty and its associated blights.
So they are probably allowed a bit of sensitivity over the crap my ancestors inflicted on them.
FYI, I am cool with people using Native American elements in writing and roleplaying and what have you. BUT...it would be great to use some nuance and research in how you are portraying things, and think about if your portrayal is disrespectful or feeding into lazy tropes and stereotypes.
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I've been looking into Nyambe and keep hearing great things about it. Might just have to get it now.
If the Paizo sale is still on, Nyambe's pretty cheap, right now.
Nyambe (fantasy Africa), Hamunaptra (fantasy Egypt), Al-Qadim (fantasy Arabia/Persia), Kara-Tur (fantasy Asia) and Northern Crown (fantasy North America) are some of my favorite 'fantasy X culture' products and settings. I've head good things about Rokugan, but I was already heavily invested in Kara-Tur, so I never really gave it a chance. :)
Naranjan is thin, covering what would probably only be a single Indian province, but an interesting look at a 'fantasy India.' I'd love a larger look at 'fantasy India,' more along the size and depth of what happened with Nyambe (big hardcover) or Hamunaptra (boxed set).
Not saying they aren't out there, but I've yet to read a good fantasy take on Central/South America or Australia.
Southlands By Kobold Press did and Okay job, although it leaned a bit too heavily on ancient Egypt IMHO
Anyways, I don't recall a western fantasy setting that's really representative of Europe, much less of medieval europe.
Ars Magica is pretty good, but it's also pretty explicit that it's trying to be a faithful representation of "Mythic Europe," which it basically defines as "Europe where the stories people tell are real." So, yes, there are dragons (but they're a long way away), and there are wizards (and you get to play them -- and they have to stay hidden), but God really does exist, and so does Pope Gregory IX, and praying to the saints really can get you miracles. From Project Redcap, "Mythic Europe is the official setting where Ars Magica sagas take place. It is a world very similar to Medieval Europe: the same kings rule, and the same cities dot the landscape. The difference is that the legends are true: there are dragons in the Pyrenees, and faeries in the deepest forests, while demons seek to corrupt the innocent. The power of the divine protects its own, but magi are generally outside its influence."
Anyways, I don't recall a western fantasy setting that's really representative of Europe, much less of medieval europe.
Game of Thrones is the closest thing I know.
Kind of depends on how you define "close" really. I have come across a decent number of literature fantasy series that roughly model some time of version of Fantasy Europe. And then there are others that take some of the set dressing such as swords, armors, and kings, but not much else. Most Fantasy RPG setting tend more towards the latter than the former.
And then you get the folklore and mythology of Europe influencing the setting. Elves, Dwarves, etc. tend to be much more alien if not completely absent in other cultural mythologies.
I had the Nyambe book when it first came out. Liked it a lot. Tried running a campaign based on it, but my players opted instead to be fantasy European-derived characters dinosaur hunting in Nyambe*. Broke my heart, but what are you gonna do?
*Mostly, I couldn't convince them to try out the dodge mechanic. They really wanted to wear lots of armor.
I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if somebody already mentioned these, but the Search function said they weren't in here:
The Roman Republic/Empire and Ancient Greece don't get much fantasy literature or RPG exposure, but notable exceptions in RPGs are White Wolf's Requiem for Rome (suggested alternate title: Rise and Fall of the Roman Vampire) for Vampire: The Requiem, and Legendary Games Studio's Mazes and Minotaurs (note: now they also advertise Vikings & Valkyries).
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Race BS aside...
I can't remember the last time I played in "medieval europe" in a campaign setting. Every homebrew setting I've played in, never struck me as "medieval europe". Every published setting I've played in (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, a brief foray into Ravenloft) never struck me as particularly european. Of course, most of these have been filled with things like ninja, djinn, western style drifters, wizards, shamans, and lots of crazy monsters ranging from dragons to mummies to jiang-shi.
It's kinda funny. I almost feel like I missed starting in a tavern or somethin'. :P
Back on topic, Ars Magica is the closest thing to a "fantasy Europe" I've ever seen. The game developers did a lot of research on medieval Europe when they created that setting.
Legend of the 5 Rings is a non-Europe fantasy setting. If I'm not mistaken, the fictional setting of Rokugan in that game is supposed to be based on feudal Japan. I never played the game though.
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Anyways, I don't recall a western fantasy setting that's really representative of Europe, much less of medieval europe.
Game of Thrones is the closest thing I know.
Kind of depends on how you define "close" really. I have come across a decent number of literature fantasy series that roughly model some time of version of Fantasy Europe. And then there are others that take some of the set dressing such as swords, armors, and kings, but not much else. Most Fantasy RPG setting tend more towards the latter than the former.
And then you get the folklore and mythology of Europe influencing the setting. Elves, Dwarves, etc. tend to be much more alien if not completely absent in other cultural mythologies.
Ah yes, I should have explained more my thoughts. (And I forgot about Ars Magica too). I am looking for RPG settings, I know novels that fit the bill.
You're right, but what I would really dig, is a setting with a political situation close to the middle ages around 1000-1200. Plenty of weak states, feodalism, kingdoms in name only, and plenty, plenty of political intrigues. That would be an occasion to use Ultimate Intrigue, but on a grand scale. Treasons, secessions, noble houses plotting, religious schisms, and so on.
While some of this is done right in game of thrones, the level of detail still is not enough for me. Also, I do not want a clone of medieval europe, just something that captures the feeling.
Midgard from Kobold press is good, but that's not yet it for me.
I also just remembered Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne (originally published by TSR but more recently published by Guardians of Order), TSR's own Dark Sun (for D&D!), and Qin: The Warring States (published by Cubicle 7, and set in Ancient China), and of course TSR's own Oriental Adventures (for D&D again!).
(Again, apologies if somebody already mentioned these).
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Anyways, I don't recall a western fantasy setting that's really representative of Europe, much less of medieval europe.
Game of Thrones is the closest thing I know.
I've seen a bunch of standalone stuff, like GURPS Imperial Rome or GURPS Middle Ages or the 2nd edition Viking and Celts Campaign sourcebooks or whatever, but no serious attempts at covering all of Europe as a single fantasy setting.
The purist in me would prefer that a D&D (GURPS, Pathfinder, whatever) fantasy setting be one or the other, either completely original (like Eberron or Dark Sun) or completely 'fantasy X' (like how Osirion, Mulhorand or Hamnunaptra are 'fantasy Egypt'). A 'fantasy X' setting, in which fantasy Egypt and fantasy Rome and fantasy Gaul and fantasy Germania and fantasy Albion and fantasy Persia all co-existed, without a bunch of made-up countries, could be neat, although it would likely veer away from Tolkein-esque fantasy in that there'd be no room on the map for elven nations, dwarven nations, orc/bad-guy humanoid nations, etc.
It would likely also get a bit Civilization-eque, in that different nations came and went, and you'd have to fudge a lot of historical timelines to have a significant Roman empire, Greek city-states, Egyptian dynastic presence *and* Persian/Ottoman empire all co-existing more or less in their 'golden age.'
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I had the Nyambe book when it first came out. Liked it a lot. Tried running a campaign based on it, but my players opted instead to be fantasy European-derived characters dinosaur hunting in Nyambe*. Broke my heart, but what are you gonna do?
*Mostly, I couldn't convince them to try out the dodge mechanic. They really wanted to wear lots of armor.
The mechanics of the game do sometimes push in the direction of encouraging a more European-looking character, particularly in the armor mechanics. AC is AC, and strapping on more metal is the ideal for a Fighter type, and not all games / settings have a viable 'lightly armored' option, such as Nyambe.
'Optimal' weapon choices tend to be swords, as well, and cultures that are more likely to use spears or hatchets have less effective options there as well, in my limited experience. It might be 'realistic' (in that swords are darn effective weapons and the dudes in armor historically did pretty well against the dudes without), but it's a sort of unconscious default setting, that the 'Fighter' is going to have a longsword (or greatsword) and be wearing plate armor (or at least a breastplate), and that anything not as Euro-centric is going to be a weaker choice.
But that's a personal drum I've been beating since Pathfinder Beta, at least, that we could use some viable lightly armored options for Fighter types, to represent more culturally-accurate fighting styles from places like Al-Qadim/Qadira and Mulhorand/Osirion and Chult/the Mwangi Expanse.
Obviously it would suck if all options turned out to be equal, just different flavor over the same mechanics, robbing the players of any meaningful choice, and making all cultures bland and same-y, but there should be a sort of middle ground where things could be different, but end up competitive, and no one armor or weapon option is just always better-er than every other option.