I would like to applaud Merus/Stefan's player for setting this in motion as an actual plan before the main characters' disappearance even occurred. While I'm certain it's just a fortuitous coincidence, it might just be what we need.
Thank you, and yes, pure coincidence :)
At a wedding this weekend. Bot as needed.
From what I can see ...each hex is 12 miles across.
Wagons travel at 16 miles a day.
Don't wagons move at the speed of whatever is pulling them? Since the top speed of a wagon is twice the speed of the animal pulling the wagon, a wagon pulled by a horse should be using the 40 ft. speed column, which means it can cover 32 miles in a day. That would get us 2 hexes a day, if they're 12 miles across.
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Twice the speed of the animal pulling the wagon?
:S
So a horse pulling a wagon has a higher speed of a horse not pulling anything?
Well, take into account the difficulty of the terrain, and the different speed of the different people. The Cenobitic monks, for example, go on foot carrying all of their stuff on their backs.
To Oleg's, if not storms or other problems, is three days normally, for a wagon.
Twice the speed is assuming the horses are running, instead of using the 3x speed or 4x speed for running. I meant that since a horse's standard overland speed is 40 feet per round, a wagon should use the horse's standard speed for determining travel times, which is 32 miles, not 16 miles, which is the 20 ft overland speed. Sorry for the confusion.
When I saw you said the monks carried their belongings on their backs, I suspected that would be the case. I also suspect they would not acquiesce to transporting their belongings in a wagon, as they may have certain vows that limit such things?
Also, you don't figure long term travel by tactical speed. They have the travel speeds for overland travel listed in the Core Rulebook.
Jasrella will offer them a ride since we made some arrangements for extra supplies...bound to be some extra space for passengers.
I never said they all would ride at the same time. Lol
I must have missed those numbers,I never knew there were that many monks.
My fault.
BTW, can we get a breakdown of the numbers of the other groups? I personally would like to know how many people the IB are moving in their (I believe it's 15) medium wagons. (Which makes for up to 30,000 lbs of cargo.)
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To tell you the truth, I don't have an exact breakdown.
- The "Surtova" group has enough wagons.
- The 4 swords and Rudolph Aldori's people have wagons, but are not the correct kind (they are for city use, not overland travel). On the other hand, their "noble" stuff if not really required for the colonization of the Stolen Lands. The only thing you need from them are the 4 swords, and they have horses.
- The Cenobitic monks (300 of them) don't have wagons or horses. But they travel light, if slow, on foot.
- Your groups have enough items to travel "at good pace".
So...
- You can't outrun a mounted army, period.
- With the monks (and Rudolph's wagons) you can't outrun a foot army.
- Without them you maybe can keep your distance to a foot army.
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Sorry for not posting, too many clothes to wash last night. Will do it shortly.
Simply put, we can't outrun Restov forces if they decide they really want the treasury. Mounted forces keep us pinned while overwhelming foot catches up. Which means that even though we should pack, I think our only real chance to get away is to talk them into letting us go.
Good advice, but damn vague. Let me give you what I'm looking at, and maybe you can point out what I'm missing. Take your second point first.
We don't have a method of summoning a larger force that would be willing to 'throw down at the drop of a hat.'
- None of us are summoner sorts.
- Few enough of us are either chaotic or barbarian fight-for-the-hell-of-it sorts. Even if many of us were, though, we don't have a sizeable friendly force within three weeks' ride, much less the three hours that'd be necessary at this point.
- While fighting for the hell of it isn't a lawful act, defending yourself is, but again, no sizeable friendly force nearby.
- So in general, the chance of there being a force friendly to us that's also nearby (3 hours or 3 days) which is also of a size to oppose that of a nation-state - or, better, sizeable enough to make them decide that taking the treasury (not to mention all our gear) is going to hurt them more than it's worth (and it would have to be a VERY significant force to do that) - is firmly and exclusively in the realm of what we in the HERO System community call 'GM Discretion land' - i.e. GM fiat. If it happens, it happens, but it won't be by anything we can do. (If Axhammer can do it, more power to him, but I expect that was still by GM fiat.)
Which leads us to your first suggestion, out-thinking them.
- We can't run the treasury away; that exposes it, plus much of it is going to be bulky, and well-outstripping my Handy Haversack's carrying capacity. (Still wish I could afford a portable hole; best bulk shipping for the weight option you can find, outside a personal pocket dimension.)
- While we can effectively conceal it, moving it away makes it a prestidigitational trick, a simple three-card monte - make them look left, at what they think is the treasury running away, while we take it out to the right in an apparently naïve attempt to continue on. This might work, but at best only until they catch the runaway, which would probably happen within two days, and I'm pretty sure they'd send a few (hundred) people with us to 'protect us' until we got out of Rostland. Which means they'd be perfectly placed to lower the boom on us once the 'runaways' were caught. (The time for this trick to have possibly succeeded has come and gone.)
- Spreading it out - concealing it in many places - would be useful, but in effect it just increases the amount of time it takes them to search our corpses and baggage for the goods.
Which means that, so far as I can tell, it boils down to the third option, the one you didn't mention, the one that Alysandra and Stefan are going to go try: convince the leaders of Restov that it's in their best interests to let them go. If we can do that, then we don't need to outwit or outfight them. Or rather, it IS outwitting them, but with a rather different methodology.
If'n I missed something that you see, by all means let me know, but I'm stumped otherwise.
For reference, this is what I'm going for here.
Basically, just look at it from 12mins up until the 16 min mark (since the entire video is a long watch and not all of it is relevant). It does an ok job with what I'm trying to have Ishana articulate, as an option should worst case scenario happen.
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Actually, you forgot one simple thing.
Is there a caster in town of aroudn 15 or higher, if so then you could buy from them a Scroll of Gate? [Might need to be higher than 15]
If that isn't the Case you could however Carry a door frame with you and have that be the entrance to an Extra Deminsional space such as you said a Pocket Deminsion, you will need a sizable amount of money to get that off the ground though and that might not be within the grounds of the wealth we can get on hand.
There is the possiblity of messaging/sending/other communication with the Hellknights, last count had them close to 1k troops at the Citadel and some other number outside of it. If you could promise ground work and another Citadel that would most likely be enough to get them to fight.
You spoke of three card monte, heres an idea to toss around. The Church of Abadar has the only banking system in game that I know of thats called out on it. You could in theory place all the treasury with them, then withdraw what you need form other temples from around the area, after you make your escape.
Axhammer has 20+ Level 1 followers, 3 level 2 followers, 1 level 3 follower and his 5th level Cohort. Using them as a suprise for any force would be the most effective way of doing it. Ghost Sound +Images could make the force look much bigger than it actually is, and there is the other problem that any attacking force would have to think about. "Do I really want to attack Hellknights?" They are not known for forgiveness when you murder their priests/paladins.
Also of note, I don't see Axhammer actually being able to do much with this venture you are planning, so simply turning a blind eye to any stealing/con-artist things going on. And waiting to see what you come up with before I bring him around
Interesting responses. I don't think any of them would work, unfortunately, and here's my reasons why I think that.
First suggestions: 3-4k is actually a pretty impressive cost (though we don't know the actual amounts available), and though Anando might agree to it, I doubt Garess would. I know Alysandra would never think of such powerful magic for such a mundane use; I also doubt that there's a 17th-level spellcaster (required for Gate) in town, and if there were, he probably wouldn't sell to us.
Second suggestion: the Hellknight we had (i.e., you) was not playing well with us last night, is not playing well with us right now. (No oath, and he was at one point willing to kill anyone who approached Rade - as much as we understand YOU weren't meaning to pull a coup d'etat, not only was that what it looked like, but that's what it functionally would have been.) Otherwise, I don't think anyone we know knows anyone at any of the Hellknight Citadels - the closest of which is roughly a thousand miles away. Pretty sure nobody available to us has that sort of Sending/messenging range, nor do I think would they be available within the next critical six to twelve hours - or, really, three to six. And, not meaning to offend, but when you wouldn't swear a temporal oath of fealty, how are we going to be able to trust your fellows?
Third suggestion: IMO, this one would probably have the highest chance of working, but it's still only a chance. The big problem is that Corsario's playing this campaign world's politics as being rather similar to RL's. Which means that even in a world where the Gods act through intermediaries, not every priest is going to be a Cleric-class character, or even adepts. (I'd personally predict that most priests are NOT capable of channelling their god, but that's Corsario's call here.) This means, however, that not only is a church subject to internal division and politics (heck, look at the Dawnflower Dissident prestige class), but a mundane branch of the faith such as this is would be exceptionally vulnerable to it, which would be Aly's expectation - because in a medieval-level world (which Golarion still is), most people don't travel more than 5 miles from their birthplace. A mundane priest-banker would probably be a Rostland (and maybe Restov) native, and patriotism could easily sway his decision to 'misplace that record'.
Fourth suggestion: would be great ... if we could have spoken to you, or if we could trust you. Regarding the first, everyone who tried to approach him and his people were told to go away, and last you posted for him, he was going to be heading south. Regarding the second, a very public 'no oathtaking' as well as an equally-public after-dinner 'go away, perhaps we can talk tomorrow' from the king means there's going to be a high level of 'okay, maybe you're on our side, but stand over there anyhow' going on between you and the followers of those who DID swear. Add in the whole IC-view bit about taking control of Rade, and a lot of us are kind of looking at you sideways as being ... not the 'our side' kind of fanatic, but the 'some other side, maybe his own' kind of fanatic. Plus, while yes he does have his followers and hirelings, it's still only 30 people against whatever force Restov and Rostland might put forth, which is liable to significantly outnumber us in both number and power. It also isn't them attacking you if you pit yourselves against them, and you're a thousand-plus miles away from the nearest significant collection of your Orders just outside of Cheliax, so your reputation ... is, I think, going to be kind of muted, possibly to the point of rumor, despite 200+ years of activity. (Not to mention the fact that if we're all dead, who's going to report it? Just because you're a Hellknight doesn't automatically mean that the local clerics are going to go out of their way to send a message of your death a thousand miles. Maybe if you were a paralictor ...)
Anyhow. Good suggestions, just ... really not sure about their practicality or viability.
Most of these do hit the mark, however you forgot a major thing.
If you contract the Hellknights to see you safetly to wherever then guard the town/keep/castle For X many years they will hold to that until the time is over. They however would not swear feality to the king/queen/whomever.
My last post had me at the crater, and since no one has sent work/message/sending or other magical communication hes going to start the investigation with the rest of the Wanderers, minus Trenats [sp?] Follower and group Losing 3 allies in the group this size is a big deal though, not sure how to reconcile it.
I personally think that the major thing is them not swearing fealty, not the fact that they'll be precise in fulfilling their contract. That, after all, is why you're in the situation you are. However, contacting the Hellknights is a very, very moot point, because they're well over a thousand miles away (1250+ straight-line, which means by road or river it's much, much further), and there is NO way to get them a message inside the critical time period - which, as we noted, is pretty much within the next three hours.
Your last posts also indicated that we should leave you the hell (a pun! :D ) alone. Bachu (and thus Trawet's 6 followers) are with us; I guess since William Nightmoon hasn't posted since the 26th, Dagit's 5 followers are with Selina at the crater. And to be honest, re-reading the back stuff, I'm very confused as to where Sacha and the 5 followers for Aolis are. I guess going by Corsario's 'Yes they are' answer-post for you, of the 27th, they're there with you as well. So you've got 39 people plus your 10 hirelings.
I guess ... well, not sure quite what you mean by 'not sure how to reconcile it', but give direction like you would to lieutenants, because that's what the 3 cohorts would be at this point. Just go ahead like you would if Dagit and Aolis were off somewhere?
The number of people who haven't posted much since the main characters' disappearance has me wondering about them.
I'm also curious when we get to find out where the main characters have been transported to and that separate thread. I've got suspicions that I'm waiting to see if they're right or not.
Most likely the DM is being nice because when you go off to the main characters, I will basicly be left out in the cold for the next umpteen months?
Very much so.
Grog, I was under the impression that there would be two threads that would run simultaneously, thus ensuring Axhammer isn't left twiddling his thumbs for umpteen months. I believe the adventures of the main characters was supposed to take place in a separate thread, yes?
Well, yes, but I don't think that was what she was meaning to focus on. I think she was meaning to indicate a concern/hope that we'd have both threads going soon ...
"Well, he wanted to find a good place for a town, his new capital, probably in the strip of land surrounded by the Shrike on three sides where the Greenbelt, Kobold and Bandit lands join, and expand from there, allying and fighting our way from there."
Hah! Called it.
Rock shape might change it, yes, but it wouldn't get around the necessary 60' change in water level from lower to upper. However, simple engineering (the first flash locks are mentioned in the Roman era, while the first pound locks were invented in China in 984. For a 60' rise, twin lock flights - particularly staircase locks - around the side(s) of each waterfall would be best, one flight/staircase for upriver travel, one for downriver travel. The size of the lock would define the size of the transport that could use it, but putting those in would definitely heighten the allure and ease of trading along that route.
Porablum might acquire a Lyre of Building, and really be able to put this sort of thing together fast; 30m = 300 man-days worth of work, and only a DC 18 strings check to keep it up after the first hour. ;)
Four in a row, alas. Oh well.
All right, I have to ask at this point - is this particular decision a railroad? It's starting to feel a lot like one, and I'd prefer to know before I run the risk of burning bridges. Or, to be honest, killing all 20 soldiers + 6 nobles/guild-masters + 1 mayor for being major pains in the asses (and a@&&$%&s), which would decapitate Restov and probably end the Brevoy Civil War before it really gets to start.
He does understand that seizing Rade and the treasury (and like Axhammer before him, that's what the politics of this would be, no matter any professed 'noble' intentions) is a casus belli against them. Which good intentions, actually, he has admitted he doesn't have - he's said as much that this is just a maneuver to gain control of Rade and the treasury, by 'denying it to the Issians'.
But if this is like the can't-be-avoided transport-nado, then instead of giving an order/suggestion to kill them all (which I'm pretty sure Garess and his more-than-20-troops would obey) and totally destroying the campaign, I'd like to know if this part is a railroad.
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To tell you the truth, it is railroad-ish. Restov wants the treasury, Issia wants the treasury, so your only way to keep it, which is the sensible thing to do, is to run into the Stolen Lands.
You have already turn Kresten to your side (which he wasn't) and even managed to befriend Ioseph (which I didn't expect). That means he will let you go if you want to, even if is not in his best interest, and as far as he knows, a terrible idea. No need to kill him. And anyway he is not suicidal. The plan was for him to go back to Restov and return with an army, but he won't do that now.
So now your problem is the Issian army, and escaping from them.
Oh good, much better. I hate to request wanton slaughter.
... well, no, that's not entirely true ... ;D
Sorry for the delay/absence. Alot of stuff going on and the hurricane did not help matters. I am currently trying to catch up on Sacha's side.
... so ... they show up right after the Mayor et. al. leave? I'm sorry, can we get a timeline, here? Because it seems that the NPCs are doing things without us having any time to get anything done. Here's what I'm believing; note that this presumes 'dawn' is at 6:00 AM, and all the times proceed from that; if dawn was earlier or later, all the times would be as well, at the appropriate intervals:
- 6:00 - Dawn, and the transportnado. The implosion is heard at the camp, and people leave to investigate. The IB begin breaking down their things, including packing up the Royal encampment.
- 6:20 - People start arriving at the meeting spot to find Axhammer the only one there, the King and all the others missing.
- 6:30 - Rade and others arrive; horses are gathered, redistributed to the cohorts of their original owners.
- 6:45 - Kresten Garess leaves around 6:40, to head back and get the treasury together in order to return it to Noleski Surtova. Most of everyone else returns as well. Shortly afterwards, the Restov riders arrive at the crater site. By this time, all of the IB 'back area' and 90% of the Royal encampment is taken down and being loaded.
- 7:00 - Garess returns to the royal encampment and seals the camp. Rade et. al., returning shortly thereafter, are denied entrance, and gather in the Coursers encampment.
- 7:10 - Rade and the Cohorts (puttin' together a band, we are) return to the royal encampment, talk/threaten their way inside, then persuade Garess to their way of thinking. At this point, the last of the Royal encampment starts being taken down; the rest will be packed and on the wagons.
- 7:20 - The Restov riders request entrance to the Royal encampment; they are spoken to by Stefan Tomanescu, leaving almost immediately back to the city. They leave one of their number behind to watch the camp.
- 7:45 - Except for the royal pavilion itself, and probably a few minor items (a handful of chairs, some service utensils), the rest of the Royal encampment is taken down and packed in wagons. The Lord Mayor Sellenius of Restov, his handful of nobles and guild leaders, and his 20 guards, arrive and speak with Rade & co., including a warning that an army from Issia, unseen in the last day (which would be shocking, but incompetence exists everywhere), is marching on the city, PRESUMABLY by the northern road.
- 7:50 - The Restov contingent departs. The IB begins to roll out, along with virtually all the rest of the groups; Jasrella has Christian's 11 followers (Argent Draca) take the tail-end spot, in order to act as a rear guard. (Note - an entire mile back invites complete destruction.) The Royal servants, working in concert and assisted by the IB, take apart the pavilion in a matter of two or three minutes, bundle it up, and stash it in the back of the last wagon or two to roll past. (Note that if it actually takes more time than that, i.e. going strictly by the 45-minute-takedown of the book, which doesn't account for the number of people you have working on it, the IB would abandon it, because speed is key at this point.)
As a note, the IB consists of roughly 9250 lbs of goods and people; their wagons carry 34,000 lbs. Presuming the Royal encampment is double their own gear (another 18,500 lbs), they still have 6200 lbs available. While this may be only 31 people (at 200 lbs per person and goods), it can include the slowest, weakest, and least capable of keeping up a hustle from the Cenobitic order.
Now, at roughly 7:47, the Lord Mayor said this:
The Issian troops will be here in a couple hours, so we barely have time to get inside."
Since we're leaving by 8:00 at the latest, we'd be hustling at least the first hour and probably the second, and this is a stern chase, we'll be between 6 and 8 miles away (2 miles/hr standard = 4 miles/hr hustle) by the time the Issians come to the city at - according to the Mayor - 10:00, much less come around the side and follow us up, which would take them about another two hours. (I refuse to Zeno's Paradox the situation; 1.5 to 2 hours is the right amount of time.)
I would also wonder at their timing - showing up and not calling out for Rupert Surtova, or even marching an army on Restov, a city on the southernmost border, which means to march 180+ miles from New Stetven (and ignoring real marches) it left roughly 10 days ago.
So I guess my question is, 'whatever happened to all the stuff we said we were doing, like leaving two hours before the Issians got there?'
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Ok, talking "Out of character"...
- Picking up camp takes time... a lot.
- If you didn't notice, not all of the Issian army arrived. Only 5 riders. See the difference?
- Are you sure there is an Issian army?
- Don't mind about it. You can't outrun them simply by "moving fast". Maybe you can gain some hours "head start", but you won't be able to keep the distance, and they will eventually gain on you.
So you need to:
- Choose where to move, as staying put seems like a losing strategy.
- Find a way to slow or stop the Issian army. So far diplomacy have worked great for you, with Kresten Garess and Restov (much better that I expected). But maybe it won't be enough now.
What do you have at your disposal:
- Your character's abilities
- Anando Verisisi abilities
- Kresten Garess abilities AND troops
- The Cenobitic monks
But first you need to answer to the riders.
... um. Okay, fvck it, whatever - they arrive while we're still in camp, even if we would have left 2 hours beforehand, because that's the way the GM wants it to happen.
If we're to 'have at (our) disposal' Garess's troops and the abilities of whatever combat-capable individuals exist among the Cenobitics, can we be informed of numbers, please? I know you don't want to make any statements as to how much gear, equipment, baggage, or people the IB are meant to be moving (hence my general guess of 'x2 what we have'), but I do hope there's some information forthcoming for the military sorts among us.
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Kresten Garess has a group of some 30-40 knights.
The Cenobitic monks have zero. No fighting capability whatsoever. And they are pacifists, non-violent-civil-resistance kind of guys. 300 of them. Women and Men. No children.
As for "baggage", you have two carts with the Sloboda's Treasury. Your choice:
- 2 big heavy slow wagons with a lot of goods and gold.
- 2 small light fast ones with very little gold.
;)
Besides that there is another 2 wagons with Rupert's and Rade's stuff.
And there are 3 city wagons, not fit to overland travel, with Rudolph Ferdinand Aldori III's fancy stuff.
The Cenobitic monks are use to travel with only the things they can carry about. On foot.
So our travel speed is that of the wagons - 2 miles/hour for wagons, regardless of their size. (Wagons all travel at the same speed, the larger ones using more draft animals to get them to that speed.) Healthy people walking (e.g. the Cenobitics) make half again as much distance (24 miles/day), and the 'city' wagons of the Aldoris will be good until we go off-road.
Y'know, I admit I thought these goons were showing up at 8:00, not 11:00 ... I guess we're not actually leaving today?
We tried. At 8 AM. You decreed we couldn't.
Not meaning to tell you how to run your game, Corsario, but from a player perspective it would have been far less aggravating for us if you'd just gone ahead and said, when asked point-blank whether or not this was a railroad, 'Yes, there are three set-pieces I want to run - you with Garess, you with the Restov nobles, and you with the Issian general.'
From 20 years in the SCA I do know how long it takes to take down and pack a medieval encampment (about 45-60 minutes), and HAVE taken down and packed a medieval royal encampment in two hours thirty, and have done it multiple times. It takes roughly three times longer to set up than it does to take down; if it takes us five hours to break camp, we'll never leave, because as soon as we're done breaking camp, we have to start setting it back up again.
I'm all for the set piece. Knowing that there are ones the GM wants to run takes the stress and aggravation out of playing the game. It would allow us to suggest ways in which both you the GM and we the players could get our way - like, for example, us leaving after the requisite 2.5 hours of packing, only to be intercepted by scouts in the fore of a large force, led by the General, on the only logical route out of the area, i.e. the eastern road.
Instead, we're stuck trying - futilely - to fight against the GM, and the GM hamfistedly declaring that it takes us a ludicrous five hours to pack up - to leave three hours after we have been warned that there's an Issian army approaching the city.
So yes, I guess I've had an issue. And I feel like the GM should know about it. As I said, for all practical purposes my saying this is moot, but I also feel that I've a right to voice my issue, however much after-the-fact it happens to be.
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Now, out of character, there are some "pieces" that were "very probably" you needed to have, talking with Garess and talking with the Restov people.
But not Maximilian.
Now... we can discuss how long it takes to pick up a camp. And how long to pick that specific camp. Also the color of the tents, or the kind of cloth they are made of.
Really? :S
Sorry, but in those cases whatever the DM says, goes. You don't like it, then it is not the game for you. So if I say it takes you 3 days, yes, it takes you 3 days.
But...
You are already packed up and ready to leave. You can get 2 hours head start from the Issian army. And the Issian army is not going to Restov. It is coming for you guys.
They will catch up with you. Quickly.
And if you got 5 hours, it is the same thing. You gain some time, but not enough.
Questions?