Optimal (Minion)Necromancer buildpath

[Gusstaff]

Hey everyone, as the title says I'm looking for advice on how to properly build a necromancer that does most of his work with undead minions.

I've read quite a few threads, but most of them are like 2 or 3 years old and, being new to necromancers, I don't know how reliable those discussions are today.

So please tell me, what, in your eyes, makes the most potent minion-mancer. (class, race, feats, whatever comes to mind) If possible, no 3pp :)

Also, I've come across a confusing (for me at least) statement quite often, which is:

Dasrak wrote:

Your undead limit counts separately for each of your classes

I do not quite understand that statement. Does it make a difference if I'm let's say a 16th level mage versus being a Oracle8/Mage8? For me both cases amount to 16x4HD of undead minions (8x4 + 8x4 in the second case).

And where does it actually state that this is the case (the quote, that is)?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: I'm not posting any of my ideas mostly because they are not very well developed, but also because I do not want to influence what advice I receive :)

[Castilonium]

Here's the Brewer's Guide to Undeath link. It'll explain the mechanics of your minion limits.

Be a cruoromancer wizard, cleric, juju spirit guide oracle, shaman with human FCB and lore wandering spirit, or gravewalker witch. Important spells are Animate Dead, Desecrate, and Command Undead. Buy a Voidstick. Boost the caster level of your Animate Dead as much as possible with things like the Gifted Adept trait and an orange prism ioun stone. Don't take the Undeath Master feat. Animate bloody skeletons out of large strong monsters, and animate a large (or bigger) fast zombie flying creature to be your mount. Don't cast Create Undead.

[The Guy With A Face]

Class

I personally prefer a Gravewalker Witch/Hex Channeler. Take the Plague Patron to gain a bunch of good spells for free such as animate dead and command undead.

Gravewalker gives you a ranged Deliver Touch Spell.

Quote:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su)

At 3rd level or higher, a gravewalker can use her poppet to deliver touch spells. After casting a touch spell, as a full-round action, the witch can designate a target and stab a pin into her poppet, delivering the spell as a ranged touch attack. The target must be within range of her aura of desecration ability.

This is helpful for buffing and healing your minions.

It also gets Bonethrall which is sort of like the Command Undead feat.

Quote:

Bonethrall (Su)

At 1st level, a gravewalker can take control of an undead creature within her aura of desecration by forcing her will upon it (Will negates, using her hex DC.) If it fails the save, the creature falls under her control as if she had used command undead (once control is established, the undead remain controlled even if outside the witch’s aura). Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist her command. The witch can control up to 1 HD of undead creatures per caster level. If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, the witch must make an opposed Charisma check whenever her orders conflict with that creature’s.

However, my favorite ability is Possess Undead.

Quote:

Possess Undead (Sp)

A gravewalker may take direct control of one of her undead minions within her aura of desecration, as if using magic jar; the witch’s poppet acts as the soul receptacle for this ability. The minion gets no saving throw against this ability.

This ability allows the necromancer to be in the front lines, commanding their minions without putting him/herself in danger. Its like being a less annoying/powerful Lich.

Hex Channeler removes the Gravewalker's biggest drawback when it comes to minion upkeep; the lack of channel negative energy. Since you have access to channel, you can also take the Command Undead feat for even more HD of undead. I'm pretty sure you can use both Bonethrall and Command Undead without any issues, but if I'm wrong someone please tell me.

Race

Halfling.

The favored class bonus for a halfling witch increases the CL of your patrons spells by 1/4. This would allow you to create more undead with animate dead and control them longer through the command undead spell.

Feats
Command Undead (if you want as many minions as possible)

Items

Voidstick. This item gives you desecrate which is a helpful spell.

Lesser Metamagic Rod: Extend. Use these to increase Command Undead's (the spell) duration.

Flawed Orange Prism

Traits

Gifted Adept. Increase animate dead's CL.

Traps

Undead Master. Don't take this feat, it doesn't actually increase the number of undead you can control. A Voidstick nullifies any reason to take this feat.

Drawbacks

You aren't healed by negative energy unless you're possessing one of your undead.

Miscellaneous
1. Bloody Skeletons are amazing.
2. Make fast zombie flying creatures if possible.
3. Only use Create Undead if this is for an NPC.

Total Number of Controlled Undead

At level 20, I think you can control 148 HD of undead with animate undead, Bonethrall, and Command Undead (feat) using this build. That number doesn't include the command undead spell.

[The Guy With A Face]

This is another option. I think it might allow for even more minions than the Gravewalker/Hex Channeler.

Dhampir Cruoromancer (Wizard)/Agent of the Grave

Race

Dhampir. The dhampir wizard's favored class bonus increases the CL of all necromancy spells by 1/4. This means more undead and longer command unead spells. It also has Negative Energy Affinity so you can be healed by negative energy instead of positive energy.

Class

Cruoromancer Wizard with the Necromancy arcane school. You'll get the Command Undead feat for free.

Blood Command is a gem.

Quote:

Blood Command (Su)

At 5th level, a cruoromancer can control up to 5 Hit Dice worth of undead creatures per caster level instead of the normal 4 Hit Dice of undead when casting the animate dead spell. He also gains the following blood infusion ability.

Agent of the Grave has this ability.

Quote:

Inspired Necromancy (Ex)

When determining the maximum number of Hit Dice of undead he can control with spells like animate dead, a character counts his Agent of the Grave levels twice. This ability does not factor into how many undead he can create with a single casting of a spell. Thus, a cleric 7/Agent of the Grave 3 would be able to control 52 Hit Dice worth of undead with animate dead.

So, for a five level dip, you gain 8 levels worth of undead HD. You lose one caster level for entering the prestige class, but if you want even more minions then its worth it.

You also gain Negative Energy Conduit which removes the need for the Voidstick.

Quote:

Negative Energy Conduit (Ex)

At 3rd level, an Agent of the Grave bolsters undead around him. As a standard action, an Agent of the Grave manifests an aura identical to the desecrate spell, except this foul aura has a duration of 10 minutes per level. An Agent of the Grave can use this ability once per day. In addition, any undead the Agent of the Grave creates is treated as having been created within the area of a desecrate spell.

Items

Lesser Metamagic Rod: Extend. Use these to increase Command Undead's (the spell) duration.

Flawed Orange Prism

Traits

Gifted Adept. Increase animate dead's CL.

Drawbacks

Lack of Channel Negative Energy to heal your minions. I'm sure there are ways to get this, such as variant multiclassing into cleric, but I don't know of any good ones off the top of my head.

Total Number of Controlled Undead

At level 20, I think you can control 160 HD of undead with animate undead and Command Undead (feat) using this build. That number doesn't include the command undead spell.

[Gusstaff]

Thanks for all that awesome insight and the guide, it helped a ton.

Another question though on how exactly animate dead works.

Let's say I kill 2 Dire Wolves .
I assume I simply use the Skeleton template on those, to create 2 Skeleton Wolves (or whatever they may be called afterwards) and can also turn them into Bloody/Burning without any trouble? The CR does not matter to me, I only care for HD, right? So those 2 wolves would count as 18HD of undead (9 each).

And one more for good measure :)

Our 10th level Fighter dies and I want to use animate dead on him. Does it simply turn him into a Skeleton with 10HD (with me being able to apply the Bloody/Burning template onto him)?

The template states

Quote:

Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD.

So he gets 10 8-sided die, am I correct?

And would he still be able to wear heavy armor? The base creature in the Core Roolbook appears to have a chain shirt, so it should be proficient with it or isn't it?

Again, thank you for all the help, you're awesome!

Edit: Ok, so my DM thinks that the above mentioned 10th level Fighter would be CR 10, but I think he would be CR 5 because he has 10HD when he dies? Is he correct, meaning that when I cast animate dead on him he would have over 20HD?

[darrenan]

Quote:

Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD.

Your fighter loses all class-based HD and comes back as a skeleton with 1 HD (unless he's getting additional racial HD from somewhere).

Everything else is correct. He can wear armor, use weapons, etc.

[Gusstaff]

darrenan wrote:

Quote:

Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD.

Your fighter loses all class-based HD and comes back as a skeleton with 1 HD (unless he's getting additional racial HD from somewhere).

Everything else is correct. He can wear armor, use weapons, etc.

Oh yeah he gets his d10 from class, makes sense. So I can't actually make a powerfull Skeleton out of him, or any of the player races for that matter?

Could I turn him into a Skeletal Champion instead? (I know this would leave him intelligent which isn't optimal, but that's a different concern)

[Gusstaff]

This post was stupid, I apologize to anyone who read it.

One last question (actually a couple of them, as I'm writing this) for clarification about HD and CR correlation:

Say I use animate dead on one of the above mentioned Dire Wolves.
They have 9HD and CR6. Applying the Bloody template makes it count as 18HD for the purpose of turning it undead, but not for controlling it with. That much is clear.

What I'm wondering is, does the increas in CR (+1) matter at all to me or is this just for the GM for when he wants to use Bloody Skeletons in an encounter?

(Please don't hate me for the following, possibly totally stupid thought that bothers my weird mind. I'm no GM and while this might be crystal clear to you, I do need clarification on this :)
From the Skeleton entry in the Bestiary Sekeletons with a CR of 6 have 12-14HD. So would the created undead Dire Wolf have 12-14HD? And would the increase of +1CR for the Bloody template for a total of CR7 give him 15-17HD?
(I don't think it would because that would be stupidly overpowered, so I think CR only matters to GM)