Well, the main difference is that you can easily use the same equipment as everyone else (well, excluding metal armor). If you see a nice shiny weapon you are proficient in, or a nice leather armor... grab it.
Because the rules for transmutation work differently when you are turning into a giant (which is a type of humanoid). Basically, your equipment scales up with you. It is essentially like using enlarge person. So feel free to grab a nice 2 handed weapon (or maybe a scimitar) and just enjoy 1.5x str with your strength boosts. And armor? Besides the 'no metal' thing, you have no problems.
Besides easier equipment, you can also skip regular druid feats like natural spell, since you can speak and have hands- you are still a humanoid. So no problems casting either.
Half orcs are usually rather nice race for this archetype, since they come with falchions (high crit, hits like great swords when you are large; slightly better than the scimitar the class comes with) or great axes (3d6, and it can grow from there with things like impact)
Another advantage is that you will be GREAT at the reach game. Not with reach weapons (druid...actually don't even get longspears, oddly). No- you will have great reach since even basic giants have 10' reach, and you are 10' (so a circle 30' wide- bigger than a normal medium reach user). You can just grab a nice 2 handed weapon for a big old hit during that. So try to get a bit of dex when possible, as well as combat reflexes. Also I wouldn't even bother grabbing a reach weapon for a reach build- you are great enough already, and you don't need to deal with the 'doughnut' problem.
Another note- you can choose the rage domain rather than an animal companion. Because x1.5 str on your attacks. So why not rage out when you aren't shooting lightning or something? It can be a bit troublesome to switching back and forth again (due to fatigue), but you could just decide to stay caster after you end the rage and do the normal options with that.
You can also spontaneously cast Enlarge Person on yourself and your companion. Do you have any idea how open the battle fields will be? With a Goliath Druid you will likely spend a lot of battles Large size or bigger.
Sounds like some cool ideas. My only real concern is losing the ability to turn into elementals
Certainly a valid concern... and honestly, if you want to have a style 'like' goliath druid, but with elementals... well, why not use elementals as a poor man's substitution?
Elementals can have hands (as indicated by their subtype- they can use weapons if they have a human like shape), so you could use do the nice 'large guy with 2 handed weapon' thing with an earth elemental instead (they get str bonuses, natural armor, and con- best general melee element). They also have a language, which removes the need for the feat to spell cast as well.
The problems with this though:
A) You don't go large until level 10. 4 levels after goliath.
B) Elementals don't get that nice equipment rule used by giants on the goliath.
That B) is not a deal breaker though- you could just buy large sized weapons and armor, and put that on after turning into your elemental form. Less flexible than goliath, but it still gets the basics down pat. So overall, more troublesome, but you can earth glide. Maybe grab the cave terrain domain to get tremor sense.
That A) might be a deal breaker for you though. It takes a long time to get your main 'thing' going if you want to use elemental to substitute goliath. Meanwhile, goliath starts with its main gimmick (which is being HUGE!) by giving you spontaneous enlarge persons.
Note that goliath druid transformations are a great deal more dependent on equipment than the regular Druid.
Multiclassing for martial weapons and possibly heavy armor proficiency would help on that.
It also means you wouldnt have to get Wild enchantment to benefit from armor AC.
Another issueis whether or not you actually want to cast spells. a melee Druid has it harder to get enough wisdom to fully cast up to tier 9 spells.
If you can build it right, yes you can make a Druid that transforms into a Giant with large(or larger) weapons doing massive damage and using spells for everything you cant just clobber.
So what I am trying to get my DM to agree to is half giant race with a large great axe proficiency from heirloom trait. When I reach level 6 and become a giant would the weapon grow to huge?
I am fairly sure it doesn't. Polymorph rules say:
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size
So that can be interpreted as it trying 'match' size in comparison to you. So going from medium to large leaves the weapon at large, since it is now 'matches' your size. But going from medium to huge makes the weapon huge, size it grows to 'match' your bigger size.
I am not digging through polymorph and enlarge person threads to find a specific source on that though.
If I may, I think you should use the Ultimate Psionics Half-Giant race. I'm sure your GM would be willing to trade at the two psionic aspects of the race with equivalent abilities. This way you can have the Goliath flavor without the addition of a template. Plus, the +2 Wis/Str falls in line with your frontline combat desires.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant
I am fairly sure it doesn't. Polymorph rules say:
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new sizeSo that can be interpreted as it trying 'match' size in comparison to you. So going from medium to large leaves the weapon at large, since it is now 'matches' your size. But going from medium to huge makes the weapon huge, size it grows to 'match' your bigger size.
That interpretation seems abusable. Polymorph while holding a sack full of diminutive or fine weapons.
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I've never thought of druids as being tanky to any noteworthy degree. You don't get quite that many hit points and you're not the king of AC either. You won't bruise in a stiff wind but to declare yourself a bulwark to hide behind may be hubris.
Druids tend to be good at high-mobility striker roles though. Whether it's a pouncing tiger or allosaurus, or a vital striking arsinoitherium, druids are good at bringing the fight forward. They also come well-equipped with spells to open up alternative movement types if enemies won't stay on the ground.
In the case of the goliath druid, the role swerves towards area control. Not because you're sturdy, but because you can hit people for heavy damage and possibly tripping to stop their movement when they come anywhere near. It may be worth the weapon proficiency just to get a reach weapon. Especially if you can supplement it with a hands-free closer weapon like a bite or unarmed strike.
On that template, does it change your size? Because the polymorph rules are very heavily biased against starting as any size other than medium or maybe small.
To explain, the polymorph spell rules have you adjust your ability scores down to medium before applying the modifiers in the spell. This is so that you don't have a troll druid polymorph into a troll and gain 4 strength.
Specifically: Large base size = -4 str, +2 dex, -2 con
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Consider the Rage domain plus VMC barbarian. That's enough rage for one day and eventually three rage powers. We don't really need any feats beyond power attack, furious finish and quicken spell. Maybe heavy armor prof.
The major benefit of the Goliath Druid is not within the size changes at all. It's in turning into a Troll form and gaining Regeneration 5. Consider how easy it is for a PF player character to get resistances to Fire and Acid (I mean, do you even need Acid resist?). If you have those to a decent level, you can be virtually immortal for hours at a time.
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I made a build that was a small sized creature dragging the gargantuan weapon around most of the day. Then, he'd shift and pick the weapon up as a Huge Troll with levels in Titan Mauler. I took Vital Strike and Furious Finish (along with a belt to negate the fatigue at the end of a rage) and I'd smack things for absurd damage at 12th level (and even more absurd at 13th). A 2d6 medium weapon enlarges quite well. 2d6 -> 3d6 large -> 4d6 huge -> 6d6 gargantuan -> 9d6 w/ impact. Vital Strike to 18d6 (or 27d6 via Improved Vital Strike at 13th level) and maximize that damage by ending the rage. 108...
I will note that this is mostly just to avoid emergency deaths (...and to save majorly on wands of CLW, of course- get at the end of the line, and by the time the wand gets passed around to you, you are already fine). The kind where you were somewhat low on hp, and the other side managed to get a couple crits in.
It will not solve TPK. Because it is easy enough for them to just put a guy on the job of stabbing you evert few rounds until your wildshape wears off or they find a nice way to barbeque you.
Regeneration is nice- no one is going to deny that. But it is not as much of a changer of your style as size. Size can allow you to play the area and distance games, and you can do it well.
The class gets plenty of fun options once level 9 roles around. Vital strike builds for massive damage when you move, lunge for distance control due your great reach... you can find some great stuff.
Lemeres, it's a fair retort. If everyone dies, then Regeneration does nothing. It does, however, allow you to fight to the bitter end with no concern for dying. If you've got levels of Barbarian and can get the Diehard feat, this can result in a *lot* of HP to burn through. The problem with getting particularly big is that you are *very* easy to hit and you've got to become a soak tank or control the battlefield with reach. I honestly would prefer the Dwarven Longhammer to almost any other weapon. It has reach, so getting Large gives you a 20' halo of "nope." If you reach 12th level to get Huge, it's now a 30' halo of "nothing comes through this." Since the OP is debating using Dreamscarred Press material, there is a feat in Path of War: Expanded that would allow an attack action (like Vital Strike) as an AoO. That brings quite a lot of ouchies. You could, if you were clever, get reasonably high Dex and take Combat Reflexes to provide extra AoOs. It won't work completely well since getting huge nukes your Dex modifier, but it's something. Probably the most powerful AoO build would use more DSP material to get Combat Reflexes tied to Int or Wis. With 30' reach (or greater), you'd just stand in a spot and slap everything out of the sky... with Vital Strike. It's nasty. Very nasty.
Oh, yes, not dying helps.
I am just saying that you, optimally, should build yourself in a way that you minimize how often you come close to dying. And being able to full attack at a distance where some creatures might have to use their whole move action to reach you... yeah, that helps.
If we are talking about reach, then I would focus on using the natural reach more than reach weapons. Use lunge to attack outside the boundary of your reach (which means they have to cross that and eat AoOs to get to you) and pushing assault to push them pass that boundary line again when they get close (you are VERY good at this, since it only works on creatures up to your size...and you are HUGE!). Combined, you can continually kite an enemy if need be while still getting full attacks and AoOs.
The thing is- distance control, rather than area control, does not play well with large creatures with reach weapons due to the doughnut. Medium can pull it off since it doughnut is in 5' step reach, but large has more trouble wtih that/ So I would prefer just to rely on regular 2 handed weapons for simplicity.
That B) is not a deal breaker though- you could just buy large sized weapons and armor, and put that on after turning into your elemental form. Less flexible than goliath, but it still gets the basics down pat. So overall, more troublesome, but you can earth glide. Maybe grab the cave terrain domain to get tremor sense.
Keep in mind that putting on armor takes minutes, not rounds. Also there's nothing in the text that says armor put on this way gets any protection from destruction if your favored form is fire elemental. If you go air or water elemental it'll probably drop off if you go into vortex form.
Things like this show why the wild enchantment is worth what it is.
That B) is not a deal breaker though- you could just buy large sized weapons and armor, and put that on after turning into your elemental form. Less flexible than goliath, but it still gets the basics down pat. So overall, more troublesome, but you can earth glide. Maybe grab the cave terrain domain to get tremor sense.Keep in mind that putting on armor takes minutes, not rounds. Also there's nothing in the text that says armor put on this way gets any protection from destruction if your favored form is fire elemental. If you go air or water elemental it'll probably drop off if you go into vortex form.
Things like this show why the wild enchantment is worth what it is.
Air and water are vague, and generally, I'd assume they have some degree of physicality as a creature- they can be hit and killed, and they are not incorporeal. I write it off as 'whatever elemental matrix holds them together also lets them wear pants'.
Fire...yeah, got to give that to you. Hard to fine items druids can wear while going with fire.
But generally, earth elementals are the prime 'I can't believe its not Goliath!' option. It just has the best stats.
Now time- yes, it takes time to put on armor. That is why I said it is less flexible- you are putting on equipment under the assumption you will be putting it on all day just like a fighter would. You aren't going to go turn into an eagle all of a sudden without some trouble afterwards.
But if you are just looking for 'cool, big nonhuman melee guy with druid spells'.... it works out.
Red dragon hide might help out a fire elemental form. Good material for druids going for heavier armors.
Regeneration is fine in combat—it doesn't really do much to keep you up, but it does keep you from dying, removing a lot of risk—but its real strength is in allowing you to recover all your hit points in 2-3 minutes.
Thank you everyone for all the different ideas. Now I am thinking of doing 4 levels of barbarian followed by 1 level druid (The rest of the levels will be druid) MY feats will be power attack, cleave, and shaping focus. I am going to lose the animal companion and instead use the growth domain for a few swift action enlarge persons if necessary. Still half giant race
Someone above mentioned taking Rage domain instead of an animal companion and going VMC Barbarian. Together, that should be enough rage to last a whole day. Personally I think that's a better option than traditional multiclassing, since with VMC you still get the full spellcasting progression of a druid.
Regeneration is fine in combat—it doesn't really do much to keep you up, but it does keep you from dying, removing a lot of risk—but its real strength is in allowing you to recover all your hit points in 2-3 minutes.
Yeah, overall, it removes the costs of non- attribute damage or status healing: it removes the need for wand of CLW, and it also removes most of the need to worry about raise person costs due to a sudden unexpected death due to crits and such.
It's this weird thing where regeneration kind of sucks for monsters now (Regeneration 5 isn't even going to slow PCs down) but remains really good for PCs.
And it's apparently the real kind of regen. The one that can bring you back to life. Unless you suffer a TPK, your Druid can just fight till he dies and then get right back up.
It also doesn't share the same weaknesses. So the regen isn't stopped by fire.
Eh, that's a really murky reading and definitely not RAI. I'd start an FAQ thread about it, honestly.
Eh, that's a really murky reading and definitely not RAI. I'd start an FAQ thread about it, honestly.
Which part? That's just how polymorph works. You don't get the exact abilities of the creature but a version of it that may be stronger or weaker than the original.
Yes, but giving you perfect regeneration is obviously not what they meant. Nothing gets perfect regeneration.
Also, I honestly can't think of many deliberate examples of polymorph letting you get the creature's ability, but better. You don't get that for other abilities—rock throwing and rend are generally weakened, the Strength/Con bonuses are nerfed, and the natural armor is lower.
There is no reason to suspect that turning into a troll would give you the big benefit and strip away that benefit's one vulnerability. Especially since shapeshifting still gives you element vulnerabilities.
They probably assumed that it would be obvious that you're supposed to get the troll's regeneration ability. It's most likely an error, not a deliberate gift of immortality.
Even so, Regeneration X/Fire on a class that gets Resist Energy amounts to basically the same thing in most scenarios.
You'd have to prepare Resist Energy at least twice—once for fire, once for acid. Not a huge difference, but it does constrain your options somewhat :P
I've actually been planning to use the Alter Self to turn into a moss troll (i.e. long before I actually get regeneration) and prep Resist Fire, just to see if I can make enemies work hard for no special gain.
Yeah, that is the thing about having a weakness- it tends to be really obvious when the other side wants to exploit it. It makes them predictable.
So when you see fire elementals or oozes, you know to hang back for this one and play it safe.
Goliath Druid is .... a head and shoulders above vanilla Druids?
I wouldnt say that. The problems the Goliath Druid suffer from have already mentioned in this thread early(read up).
The Goliath Druid is an Archetype that really focuses on a Brute Druid, as opposed to a Caster druid, or a Balance Druid.
A Goliath Druid will not be at the level of casting as more specialist casting druid or even vanilla druids. Your Druid may turn into a Fire Giant, but that Caster Druid you laughed at will eventually be summoning groups of augmented Giants.
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Seriously, nothing at all stops a Goliath Druid from being a full caster. They get access to better domains than most Druids and they're still effective combatants even with wisdom being primary. They as good at casting as a vanilla Druid. Better even, because of the lack of needing natural spell and wild speech.
A Goliath Druid will not be at the level of casting as more specialist casting druid or even vanilla druids. Your Druid may turn into a Fire Giant, but that Caster Druid you laughed at will eventually be summoning groups of augmented Giants.
Maybe I'm missing something but what's stopping the Goliath Druid from casting the same spells?
At a glance, the only change in spellcasting is the Goliath gets different domains and the domains the Goliath can pick up aren't exactly bad.
A Goliath Druid will not be at the level of casting as more specialist casting druid or even vanilla druids. Your Druid may turn into a Fire Giant, but that Caster Druid you laughed at will eventually be summoning groups of augmented Giants.Maybe I'm missing something but what's stopping the Goliath Druid from casting the same spells?
At a glance, the only change in spellcasting is the Goliath gets different domains and the domains the Goliath can pick up aren't exactly bad.
Yeah...at best, the only REAL difference is that you can't turtle up with something like air elemental (Which has flight, dex bonuses, and eventually DR -/10). Which is a nice form for a pure caster druid, but little other real difference for just casting.
All druids have to worry about splitting their scores between str and wisdom. Goliath druid isn't really special or locked into one side of that debate.
A Half-orc Goliath with rage domain and a badger companion could dip three lvls of hunter and pick amplified rage for himself and the badger.
Up badger's Int to 3 and it can pick the extra rage feat.
Per the FAQ, only one size increase effect and one 'effective' size increase effect applies at a time. Also from the rules on polymorph effects you lose extraordinary and supernatural abilities which depend on your original form when polymorphed. Changing into a giant is a polymorph effect, enlarge person somehow isn't.
Putting it all together: enlarge person and powerful build stack. Enlarge person and wild shape into giant form, or wild shape into giant form and powerful build, don't stack.