Defensive Flowing Qiggong Monk

[Xaimum Mafire]

So, I have this concept of a Flowing Qiggong Monk with the Vows of Peace, Truth, and Poverty. I was thinking about taking Bludgeoner, Agile Maneuvers, and Improved Reposition at 1st. The idea is that he doesn't like to hurt people, so that's why I'm taking Agile Maneuvers over Weapon Finesse (and I'm not 100% on which Combat Maneuvers work with Weapon Finesse/Dex). I realize that Bludgeoner probably won't get that much use, since I've got a 10 Strength, but it's thematic.

It's a 25-buy game, so my stats are as follows:

Human Monk (Flowing Monk/Qiggong Monk)
Traits: Reactionary, Wisdom in the Flesh (Swim)

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (+2)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

1: (Bonus Feat- Improved Reposition), Agile Maneuvers, Bludgeoner
2:
3: Improved Grapple
4: Ki Power- Hydraulic Push
5: Chokehold
6: (Improved Trip)
7: Ki Throw

Also, I'd like to swap out High Jump for Cloak of Winds, but Cloak of Winds isn't available until 6th level. Can I just not take High Jump at 5, then take Cloak of Winds at 6?

[Xaimum Mafire]

Mechanically, the goal would be for him to set up the team for flanking and the like.

[Finlanderboy]

if you use a weapon for the maneuvers then it is finessable.

So if ytou use your hands to trip then yeah. Reposition i find often is not finessable.

I would suggest tripping instead of reposition. I would look at getting vicious stomp, and greater trip. Then pounding people a bunch when you trip them. You can also get heirloom weapon trait to add an extra bonus on your tripping. Then later get masterwork transmogrification to masterwork it.

Bludgeoner i do not understand a monk getting as you can punch for nonlethal.

[Xaimum Mafire]

Bludgeoner's out. This is why I needed advice, lol.

1: (Bonus Feat- Improved Reposition), Agile Maneuvers, Improved Grapple
2:
3: ??? (Snake Style? Combat Expertise?)
4: Ki Power- Hydraulic Push
5: Chokehold
6: (Improved Trip)
7: Greater Reposition/Grapple (Not sure which)

[Bob Bob Bob]

If you use a trip weapon to reposition you can add any bonuses to the weapon to the reposition maneuver. It's really hard to track down. Kama is perfect for this since it's light, monk, trip, and you actually get proficiency. The standard "weapon" combat maneuvers are disarm, trip, and sunder, dirty trick is allowed (with GM approval), and reposition and drag are allowed with a trip weapon.

Also not sure why you have Bludgeoner unless you're using some other weapon I don't see.

Vow of Poverty is terrible. Even with the more ki (it was originally much worse), you really, really need magic items. Really. If you never go above level 4, maybe, but otherwise it's just terrible. Qinggong powers do not make up for only one magic item.

You can't delay Qinggong picks. When you choose whether to trade out a feature you also choose what to replace it with.

Overall... meh. If "set up for flanking" is all your character does, that's terrible. You can just raise acrobatics and roll behind them. If they don't attack you you're spending your standard (and therefore not attacking) to do the reposition. Even if you do attack you don't deal much damage. You're almost literally making "the load".

Honestly, I'd drop the reposition thing entirely. Reposition doesn't provide any benefit beyond positioning, trip provides benefits period. Go Improved Trip and grab Ki Throw at 3rd to reposition when you trip. Max acrobatics to provide flanking if you care that much. Why do you care? Flanking is worth +2 (+4 with Outflank) but trip is worth +4 always and can get you up to three AoO (on fall Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, on standing normal AoO).

[CoI]

I really like kusaragami and double chained kama for maneuvers. They're both monk weapons and give some decent bonuses. You have reach, so you can use many maneuvers without provoking attacks, and I'm fairly certain both are usable to monk's without exotic weapon proficiency. The kama is at least.

[Xaimum Mafire]

Well for the combat mechanics, the reposition flanking is specifically to help out the two weapon melee rogue. There's also clustering enemies for AoE spells/attacks. Thematically, he's taken a vow of peace and goes out of his way not to hurt any creature. Also, if Reposition uses trip bonuses like drag, would that allow me to switch out an attack for reposition during a full attack/Flurry of Blows?

I'll probably grab something to replace High Jump at 5th, since I can't delay picks.

[Finlanderboy]

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

Well for the combat mechanics, the reposition flanking is specifically to help out the two weapon melee rogue. There's also clustering enemies for AoE spells/attacks. Thematically, he's taken a vow of peace and goes out of his way not to hurt any creature. Also, if Reposition uses trip bonuses like drag, would that allow me to switch out an attack for reposition during a full attack/Flurry of Blows?

I'll probably grab something to replace High Jump at 5th, since I can't delay picks.

knocking them prone gives a +4 to hit and -4 to attack and they provoke correcting this. Plus it is very easy to flank a prone person. I would trip then reposition

[Bob Bob Bob]

The problem is that you're sacrificing your attack (and your turn in general) to help another player get sneak attack and that's all. It's not worth it. Especially since one (or likely both) of you should have enough acrobatics to move into position yourself. And that's if you can't just have one of you go right while the other goes left. Flanking is very easy to do if you have two people trying for it.

As for moving them into an AoE, you realize that reposition only works within your reach (+5 feet at the end). If you're not enlarging (since it hurts your maneuvers I don't think you were planning on it) then you're moving a single person at most 15 feet. That's not enough, not by a long shot. Oh, and you're at most 10 feet from them, so you're probably also in that AoE range (at the very least your allies need to aim around you).

You can add any bonuses from a weapon to a reposition maneuver if you use a trip weapon. That's all. It's still a standard action barring a few feats (Quick Reposition lets you do it in place of an attack, Repositioning Strike does it on a crit). Maneuver Master Monk would let you do it but it's not compatible with Flowing.

Basically, I'm looking at this and asking the simple question: "What do you do when you're not helping the rogue flank"? Because as it is, you're swinging at +5 or +5/+5/+0 for 1d8+0. That's awful. I assume you're starting at 7th but if you're not, your best attack until level 6 is grapple (which takes two rounds before you deal damage). And that "best attack" is the same 1d8 damage as your terrible regular attacks. Trip both improves your attack roll and penalizes theirs, can stop them from moving, and gives you a free attack when they stand up. Reposition does absolutely nothing without someone else to take advantage of it.

[pH unbalanced]

I've played a Reposition focused Flowing Monk up to level 10 in PFS.

In order to substitute a reposition for an attack in a multiattack round you need the feat Quick Reposition.

The suggestion that you'll need another trick or two up your sleeve is exactly right -- there will be plenty of times where reposition doesn't help much. You will want a way of getting reach (I bought a dozen potions of Enlarge Person) and you'll really be dependent on others for inflicting damage.

That said, once you get Greater Reposition online, reposition can be more effective in provoking AoOs than trip, because you can move them through multiple squares. Using your interrupt to reposition a foe to a spot where they can no longer attack is very satisfying.

It can work, but I probably wouldn't recommend it unless you knew there were going to be at least two other people in the party who were wading into melee regularly.

[Finlanderboy]

If you get vicious stomp and greater trip, you kick them twice for falling and your buddies get one attack in two.

Then their CMD drops by 4 and you then you reposition them for your rogue buddy so when they stand up hes gets a free sneak attack at +4

Since trip is an attack action you can do multiple of those a turn too!

You can also get ki throw to reposition them as a trip. Win/win.

[Xaimum Mafire]

Thanks for all the advice. I really like the idea of reposition and non-violent violence (and I'm too stubborn to drop Repositioning completely), but it seems like in order to make the character fun without severally hindering the party, I'll have to focus on non-combat abilities (Diplomacy/Perception/Sense Motive) or something else.

1: (Bonus Feat- Improved Reposition), Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise
2:
3: Improved Trip
4: Ki Power- Hydraulic Push
5: Improved Disarm
6: (Ki Throw)
7: Greater Reposition

-OR-
1: (Bonus Feat- Improved Reposition), Agile Maneuvers, Alertness
2:
3: Improved Trip
4: Ki Power- Hydraulic Push
5: Master Craftsman (Craft: Armor or Jewelry)
6: (Ki Throw)
7: Greater Reposition

EDIT: I meant to have Master Craftsman as the 5th level feat.

[SmiloDan]

Both look good. Maybe take Combat Reflexes at 2nd level?

Do you think you'll use Combat Expertise? Do you think Alertness is worth a feat?

Is Weapon Finesse an option? You seem really Dex-based. Maybe take Enforcer and the trait that gives you Intimidate as a class skill? You can do non-lethal damage and demoralize your opponents, which makes them worse at hitting your allies. Not having your allies get beat up is kind of nonviolent.....

[Xaimum Mafire]

Unfortunately, Flowing Monk trades out the 2nd bonus feat for an archetype feature. And if I took Combat Expertise, I'd always have it on (defensive monk of peace and all).

Also, I forgot that I wouldn't qualify for any Greater combat maneuver feat as a Monk until 9th level. I might just shelve this idea until I'm in a game that starts at a higher level...

[SmiloDan]

Oh, OK.

Maybe some kind of dedicated martial class with shield specialty?

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Xaimum Mafire wrote:

So, I have this concept of a Flowing Qiggong Monk with the Vows of Peace, Truth, and Poverty. I was thinking about taking Bludgeoner, Agile Maneuvers, and Improved Reposition at 1st. The idea is that he doesn't like to hurt people, so that's why I'm taking Agile Maneuvers over Weapon Finesse (and I'm not 100% on which Combat Maneuvers work with Weapon Finesse/Dex). I realize that Bludgeoner probably won't get that much use, since I've got a 10 Strength, but it's thematic.

Also, I'd like to swap out High Jump for Cloak of Winds, but Cloak of Winds isn't available until 6th level. Can I just not take High Jump at 5, then take Cloak of Winds at 6?

You don't have to take a Ki power at that level if you don't want, but that shouldn't forbid you from going back and acquiring one either. Do what you need to do. Your GM shouldn't argue much. Whether RAW allows it or not, I can't be 100% sure.

Personally, I played a Qinggong/Flowing Monk and it was a lot of fun. Although, you do your job the Best if you're jacking up your AC(especially as a Dex/Wis based) to make sure you stay alive, and otherwise hinder opponents as best as you can.

Always have someone in your group pop Mage Armor(from a wand or class) on you, or otherwise stock up on potions for that.

Barkskin is something you should consider as well.

Flowing Dodge will come to very good use.

Don't hesitate to use your Ki points(swift I think) for extra AC as well.

I'd highly recommend Snake Style/Sidewind/Fang in your build, as each AoO for someone missing your high AC, will result in AoOs you can utilize to Reposition/Trip them, or other effects depending on other feats you may take. Also, because you will be taking so many AoOs as a Dex/Wis Monk with Combat Reflexes, each one of those has a chance of Flat-Footing your opponent. This is very powerful and a Reflex save isn't too horrible against most foes. Be thankful it isn't a Fort save haha.

Things of course only get worse for your foes if they continue to attack you or try to get by you. however, why focus on you if you're so tough to hit? They usually will learn very quickly and move on, but that's why you need to keep them in place if you can help it. Stand Still becomes almost a necessity for this, stopping them in their place. Then they have no choice but to attack you and suffer further. Agile Maneuvers isn't needed, as you can already use Dex with Trip/Reposition/Disarm and I think Sunder too. If you're trying to Bull Rush or Grapple you'd want Agile Maneuvers. If you can get Enlarged and increase your Reach, they really won't be going anywhere anytime soon :D

Other Feats you'll want:
Combat Reflexes(definitely)
Dodge(maybe)
Stand Still(definitely)
Snake Style
Snake Sidewind
Snake Fang
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Improved Reposition
Greater Reposition
Punishing Kick(you get to use it like a normal monk)
Stunning Fist(you get to use it like a normal monk)
Touch of Serenity(you get to use it like a normal monk)
and I'll add more when I can... it's been a while
Edit 1: Weapon Finesse
Edit 2: Ki Throw
Edit 3: Improved Ki Throw
Edit 4: Crane Style/Wing/Riposte (though it'll be harder to hit opponents, but even harder to hit you, but it would be a more "peaceful" style compared to Snake)
Edit 5: Elusive Redirection - super duper fun :)

Overall not only will you be repositioning creatures and totally screwing up any full-attack sequences, redirecting attacks and otherwise making them sickened, but you'll be throwing a lot of AoOs around and keeping them still/ flat-footing them/ tripping them/ etc. You'll basically be the ultimate melee buddy, and legitimately protecting your party from physical harm aside from ranged attacks. It's a really slick combo that really optimizes this archetype. Your damage will be underpar, but defenses and utility will be fantastic. Your teamplay level will be outstanding too. Make sure to get anything that allows you to trip/reposition larger foes, and anything that adds a bonus to that attack.