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Can a person who casts Gaseous Form on themselves choose to dismiss it early?
From the PRD:
"(D) Dismissible: If the duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture."
Gaseous Form is listed as a Dismissible spell. And since it has no verbal component, you arguably need to make a gesture to dismiss it.
But once you are under the effect of Gaseous Form, are you able to make gestures? Gaseous Form notes that you "can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form." So if you can't make somatic actions, can you gesture?
"You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture."
So to dismiss a verbal spell, the words you speak are a modified form of the verbal component. So to dismiss a somatic spell, the gestures you make would likely be a modified form of the somatic component. And since you can't make somatic actions at all in gaseous form, you can't make modified versions of them either.
The shape of your form isn't mentioned in Pathfinder, however, 3.5e noted: "A gaseous creature can move about and do the things that a cloud of gas can conceivably do". I don't see a cloud of gas being able to make gestures.
I think the fact that it's designated as dismissable necessarily means you can do some form of "gesturing" as a cloud. Not sufficient to provide the somatic components of a spell, but enough to dismiss it because it is specifically designated as dismissible. I'd take the clear rule over an abstract functional argument. There was no intention to make a dismissible spell that you cannot dismiss.
I look at it much the same way as the Silence spell. Both are dismissable providing you don't cast them on yourself. If you do, then you have to wait the duration out.
Create Mr. Pitt wrote: I think the fact that it's designated as dismissable necessarily means you can do some form of "gesturing" as a cloud. Not sufficient to provide the somatic components of a spell, but enough to dismiss it because it is specifically designated as dismissible. I'd take the clear rule over an abstract functional argument. There was no intention to make a dismissible spell that you cannot dismiss. Unfortunately, the fact that it is [d] dismissible does not suddenly grant it powers that it does not say it has. Since the spell is capable of being cast upon others, the logical rebuttal to your opinion is that being [D] does not cause any conflict or contradiction to the rules.
How would you dismiss the gaseous form cloud on another person? By speaking the words of dismissal while within range of the spell's effect (presumably touching a gaseous creature). That's the rules-as-written for dismissing a spell.
Do I agree with them? No, but the rules have been in play and in use for years and they are pretty clear. Just because I've rarely seen anyone enforce them when the situation involved certain spells isn't the issue. Sometimes you just have to realize that not every rule can conveniently cover situations where physics and world-altering powers are involved. But it is the rule and it's pretty clear how it works.
What does this mean? It means you can't dismiss a silence if you're in its effect, since you can't speak the words of dismissal (unless you cast it with Silent Spell in which case you could gesture). This means if you take a form like an ooze, or an animal, or any creature that can't talk or speak the words of dismissal, you can't [D]ismiss your (polymorph) spell.
In the case of gaseous form, if your ruling is that you can't speak or gesture, then you can't Dismiss.
There's no specific rules for gesturing. A gesture is not something with substance in the rules so there is no reason to think the form can or cannot do it. The dismissible quality of the spell would guide my decision in this regard. I certainly don't think it's perfectly clear, but it's sufficient in my mind. I don't think there's a definitive answer here though.
Mr. Pitt wrote: "There's no specific rules for gesturing" You've hit the nail on the head. There is no specific rule for gesturing. It's a gap.
If we look at the intro part of the Magic section:
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)."
Gestures and somatic components look to be directly related. So if you cannot make a somatic action, can you make a gesture?
I agree with your summation though Mr Pitt. There is likely no definitive answer here (unless a designer wants to weigh in).
A gesture is universally understood to be a movement of the body, typically a hand (since the rules are made from humanoid perspective), though also possibly the head, such a nod. A gesture is distinct and expressive enough that it conveys a meaning.
A gesture has substance in the rules AS BEING DISCUSSED because the rule being discussed here is (D)ismissing spells and the rules for dismissing spells require a gesture (in the case of a non-verbal spell) and that the gesture is of suitable precision or measurements that the action is at least equivalent to a standard action. That is of sufficient substance to separate a gesture of (D)ismissal from any other gestures that may even be a free action, just as you could speak a sentence or two as a free-action even during combat, speaking a one-word utterance of a word of (d)ismissal will still take up your entire Standard action.
So obviously, the rules here aren't talking about a 'gesture' of faith, so you can't just spend a standard action making a silent prayer to your deity nor could you allow a cloud-lady to slip under a doorframe first and thus claim to have made a 'gesture' of politeness to dismiss the spell. The rules are very clear that a somatic component equivalent is the gesture being discussed in the rule in the Magic section, and while discussing the components that the (D) spell does or does not have.
If you want to say that a gaseous character is capable of gesturing sufficiently to do somatic components or make gestures of dismissal, then that's your call. If you cannot make such actions, then you cannot dismiss the spell. The rule for how to dismiss a (D)ismissible spell is clear enough.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
You are not a gaseous cloud. You are a gaseous version of yourself. You still have your arms and legs, and general shape, and can still make gestures.
I can see how it would be brought into question, what with the spell's inherent limitations and all though.
The fact that they made it dismissable shows intent. Otherwise it defeats the point. If one reading of the rule works, and another one causes the rules to be useless.....
The spell does not say that you can't speak, it says that you can't speak well enough to cast a spell with verbal components. The spell does not say that you can't gesture, it says that you can't gesture well enough to cast a spell with somatic components.
Since dismissing a spell is not casting a spell, regardless of whether you need to speak or gesture to do so, there is nothing in the spell Gaseous Form that would prevent you from doing so.
wraithstrike wrote: The fact that they made it dismissable shows intent. Otherwise it defeats the point. There is no contradiction here. The fact that the spell can be cast upon others and can then be dismissed means we cannot go by intent for this purpose because there is clearly a legal method for dismissing the spell. You would agree that beast shape is dismissable, correct? You would then also have to agree that there are forms, such as an animal shape, that cannot speak and as such cannot speak the words of dismissal as stated clearly in the rules for dismissing spells. Additionally, there are method, items, or powers that do allow for speech in an otherwise non-speaking form and these would allow verbal component spells in those forms and also their equivalent dismissal.
This is not a case of the spell not working or being broken, it is a case of the caster putting themselves into a position to not be able to dismiss the spell. If a caster polymorphs herself into an ooze that cannot gesture or speak, then it cannot gesture or speak, regardless of the fact that polymorph is (D) dismissible. This is no different than if the caster stepped into the area of effect of her own silence spell, it is not an error or contradiction.
I don't necessarily agree with how it works with every spell, but in this case your statement that intent is sufficient is not.
_Ozy_ wrote: The spell does not say that you can't speak, it says that you can't speak well enough to cast a spell with verbal components. The spell does not say that you can't gesture, it says that you can't gesture well enough to cast a spell with somatic components. Right, which is why everyone agrees that you can still talk and gesture while Unconscious or Dead, because they don't say you can't. <---- (good-natured) sarcasm.
You are going to have to read some things using common sense. No one is going to believe that the phrase 'Material armor is worthless' in the spell means that your +3 chainmail of gaseous form is free as long as you bought it while it was gaseous. After all, it lists the exceptions and not one of those is the item's value or worth.
"Hey where'd you get that armor? It seems pretty expensive."
"Oh this? I made a deal for it while the merchant was in gaseous form so it was worthless to him. He was able to talk fine as long as none of the words matched the verbal components of any spells that exist."
_Ozy_ wrote: Since dismissing a spell is not casting a spell, regardless of whether you need to speak or gesture to do so, there is nothing in the spell Gaseous Form that would prevent you from doing so. Other than whether the form you are in can speak or gesture sufficiently to dismiss a spell, that is kind of spelled out.
Quote: To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component),... (D) Dismissible wrote: If the duration line ends with “(D),” you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Dismissing a spell may not be the same as casting a spell: it takes a standard action regardless of the actions (or casting time) or the spell, and it doesn't provoke and AoO. You could also try and dismiss a spell while you were inside an antimagic field.
Since there is mention of gesturing in the Magic section, and it's described as being the requirement of a somatic component, and (D) Dismissing uses the word for gesture in that very same section of the rules, (not somewhere in the skill section talking about sign language or innuendo or Profession: Crossing Guard) it is pretty clear that the words and gestures described are at least of equivalent or comparable quality to those used while casting the spell.
The rules for dismissing state they are a modified form of the spell's verbal components. So that's a pretty strong indicator that speaking the words of dismissal requires an comparable amount of vocal capability, which in this case gaseous form disallows. (The gaseous form spell itself does not require a verbal component, but it is still important to note this for other spells that duplicate it and do have a verbal component, like wind walk.)
Since it is already a well-known statement that the rules are written towards a humanoid-centric standpoint, the ability to speak and gesture is automatically assumed to be human-equivalent, yes a dog can gesture or point at an object of interest (even dramatically so) but that is not going to qualify as being of sufficient standard for 'gesture' as described in handling spells.
As such, I would have to make the ruling that 'gesture' in the case of dismissing a spell is analogous to the 'gesture' required to cast a spell based on the wording for speaking and verbal requirements. Since gaseous form does not allow the capability to do verbal 'speech' or somatic 'gestures' of that baseline standard, then it does not allow for (D) dismissal. There are methods, skills, or items that could assist here. For instance, if a bard casts a spell using a musical instrument or performance that substituted for the verbal component (such as playing a flute) then they would also be able to dismiss that spell by performing the 'tone/aria/tune of dismissal'. A caster using Natural Spell would qualify for being able to dismiss a spell either verbally or somatically while shapechanged even if in a form that doesn't normally allow for such things.
Wow, both sides do make good arguments on this, I'd like to say I agree with those that says you CAN dismiss it, but on the other hand... I really think this is a great candidate for a FAQ, and so I FAQ flagged the OP
By pure Rules as Written, I don't think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if you cast it on yourself. You aren't just making a simple gesture (such as a nod of the head) you are making a specific 'gesture' to dismiss a spell cast on yourself with such complexity that it takes a whole standard action to perform whilst provoking an AoO.
By Rules as Intended / Rules as Played, I think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if cast on yourself. In my mind I look at creatures such as Vampires who can go into a gaseous form. They should have some way of coming out of it at will.
Pizza Lord wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: The spell does not say that you can't speak, it says that you can't speak well enough to cast a spell with verbal components. The spell does not say that you can't gesture, it says that you can't gesture well enough to cast a spell with somatic components. Right, which is why everyone agrees that you can still talk and gesture while Unconscious or Dead, because they don't say you can't. <---- (good-natured) sarcasm.
You are going to have to read some things using common sense. No one is going to believe that the phrase 'Material armor is worthless' in the spell means that your +3 chainmail of gaseous form is free as long as you bought it while it was gaseous. After all, it lists the exceptions and not one of those is the item's value or worth.
"Hey where'd you get that armor? It seems pretty expensive."
"Oh this? I made a deal for it while the merchant was in gaseous form so it was worthless to him. He was able to talk fine as long as none of the words matched the verbal components of any spells that exist." Common sense is fine for conditions that have 'common' real world equivalents. The game doesn't need to define specifically what you can and can't do when unconscious because unconsciousness exists as a real world reference. Gaseous form does not.
If the spell wanted to you to be unable to speak or gesture, it would say: you can't speak or make gestures. Instead, it says you can't speak or gesture well enough to cast spells. That's it.
Rob C wrote: By Rules as Intended / Rules as Played, I think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if cast on yourself. In my mind I look at creatures such as Vampires who can go into a gaseous form. They should have some way of coming out of it at will. Just so everyone is on the same page:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. No language in that ability to allow the vampire to dismiss its gaseous form. There might be a general rule on how supernatural abilities work that allows creatures to shut them off, but my brief search failed to turn it up.
Blymurkla wrote: No language in that ability to allow the vampire to dismiss its gaseous form. There might be a general rule on how supernatural abilities work that allows creatures to shut them off, but my brief search failed to turn it up. I am inclined to agree with you that it's a Supernatural ability and does not have to conform to the rules for Spells or even Spell-like abilities.
Remember, a creature's abilities are (most often historic or based on fantasy) not made with a Pathfinder compatibility stat in-mind. Bram Stoker wasn't planning to release an RPG to my knowledge when he gathered up his thoughts and compiled some legends and stories.
Like I say, I don't necessarily agree with (D) in every single possible case, but this is a Rules area and discussing rules theory can be good exercise. Would I require a vampire to stay in gaseous form for at least 10 minutes at a time in my game? Of course not, but you don't need someone to just tell you can run things how you want in your game.
I am firmly of the mind that (D) Dismissible rules for spells are in the Magic section which is almost exclusively for handling spells, not supernatural or even spell-like abilities (other than when the effects might be similar enough to a rule in a spell.)
I would also like to think that the Dismissible rules could cover spell-like and supernatural abilities in that they don't use components (or if so only in very rare cases) and as such, don't require the associated dismissal action (still would take a standard action).
I would point out, that the rules for dismissal only seem to talk about a spell without a verbal component and that it doesn't mention spells without somatic components as well, but if you agree that the section is meant to talk of spells then its assumption would be that a spell will have at the least a verbal or a somatic component (barring metamagic alteration) and thus, be one or the other. By that understanding, a spell without a verbal or somatic component could just be dismissible with the standard action. I don't necessarily feel comfortable with that level of assumption, but it's not too far-fetched that I can't mention it as an option.
Again though, for the cases of creatures with Special Abilities, I think most spells were made to emulate such beasts and tales of their powers. The flaws or restrictions of magical spells shouldn't suddenly become the norms for the creatures they're based on. I am positive that any spell allowing the breathing of fire was likely inspired by tales of dragons, but if a wizard creates such a spell (no matter how flawed to emulate it) then all dragon's breath weapons aren't suddenly beholden or relegated to the restrictions of magical spells. I would say this is the same case with a caster hearing tales of vampiric prowess and power and making a spell that (sort of) emulates it in power. That doesn't mean that vampires' gaseous form powers are now weaker because a spell is, nor that they become spells and are subject to the same restrictions (dispel, duration, components, counterspelling, etc.)
Blymurkla wrote: Rob C wrote: By Rules as Intended / Rules as Played, I think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if cast on yourself. In my mind I look at creatures such as Vampires who can go into a gaseous form. They should have some way of coming out of it at will. Just so everyone is on the same page:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. No language in that ability to allow the vampire to dismiss its gaseous form. There might be a general rule on how supernatural abilities work that allows creatures to shut them off, but my brief search failed to turn it up. The word "indefinitely" is what indicates a vampire can end its gaseous form whenever it wants.
Gallo wrote: Blymurkla wrote: Rob C wrote: By Rules as Intended / Rules as Played, I think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if cast on yourself. In my mind I look at creatures such as Vampires who can go into a gaseous form. They should have some way of coming out of it at will. Just so everyone is on the same page:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. No language in that ability to allow the vampire to dismiss its gaseous form. There might be a general rule on how supernatural abilities work that allows creatures to shut them off, but my brief search failed to turn it up. The word "indefinitely" is what indicates a vampire can end its gaseous form whenever it wants. You're most likely right. In my, non-english-native mind "indefinitely" read as "forever". So I was inclined to believe that either the vampire would stay in gaseous form until the end of times or the spell was dismissible even when the caster was the target. And the latter made more sense.
By the way, is there a difference between the vampire's Gaseous Form (Su) and having Gaseous Form as a spell-like ability usable at-will?
Blymurkla wrote: Gallo wrote: Blymurkla wrote: Rob C wrote: By Rules as Intended / Rules as Played, I think Gaseous Form can be dismissed if cast on yourself. In my mind I look at creatures such as Vampires who can go into a gaseous form. They should have some way of coming out of it at will. Just so everyone is on the same page:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. No language in that ability to allow the vampire to dismiss its gaseous form. There might be a general rule on how supernatural abilities work that allows creatures to shut them off, but my brief search failed to turn it up. The word "indefinitely" is what indicates a vampire can end its gaseous form whenever it wants. You're most likely right. In my, non-english-native mind "indefinitely" read as "forever". So I was inclined to believe that either the vampire would stay in gaseous form until the end of times or the spell was dismissible even when the caster was the target. And the latter made more sense.
By the way, is there a difference between the vampire's Gaseous Form (Su) and having Gaseous Form as a spell-like ability usable at-will? Plenty.
PRD wrote: Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Spell like abilities work like the spell they emulate, duration and other effect included. so if you have the invisibility at will as a Spell Like ability, it has a specific duration set by your caster level and the spell description. When that time end you become visible.
If you have invisibility at will as a SU ability it last for the time indicated by the specific ability: If there is no time limit it last forever.
SP abilities are perceptible when activated, SU, not necessarily.
You need different skills to know what a SP and SU ability do, even if they share the same name.
Basically, with a SP ability you are casting the spell, with a SU ability you aren't.
Unless Paizo rules on it (and I doubt they will as it seems fairly trivial), its going to come down to your DM's opinion.
My own is that you can dismiss the spell, since the spell's text only says that you can't cast spells with those components. I would presume you're simply not able to make gestures as quickly and precisely as needed to cast a spell while your body is gasseous... but still able to make the needed gesture to dismiss when you have all the time of a standard action to accomplish it.
The extension of this is that if you can gesture while in gaseous form but can't perform somatic components, you could also speak but not make verbal components.
That is, you can speak while in gaseous form. Just not "in a strong voice"
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