CR adjustment for Skeletal Champion template?

[Olaf the Holy]

The current way of calculating the CR of a skeletal champion produces broken results, and so I turn to you guys to help me peg the right CR adjustment for it.

I personally think it should be a +1 template.

What do the rest of you think?

[Java Man]

If you just add the cr for class levels on top of the cr for the skeletal racial hd, adjusted per the skeletal champion cr adjustment, you should a reasonable number.

[Olaf the Holy]

What's the CR for the racial HD though? Undead advancement seems to suggest that two levels of undead HD would be CR +1. That makes the template CR +2.

That doesn't seem quite fair.

Look at what Vampire, Graveknight or Lich adds to a monster. Is +2RHD really worth the difference between this:

+2 Nat AC
DR 5/bludgeoning
channel resistance +4
immunity to cold.
+2str, +2dex.

and this:

+4 Nat AC
DR 10/magic
Channel resistance +4
Immunity to cold, electricity, and one of acid or fire
Continuous double Desecrate + anti-positive energy aura
SR=11+CR
+8 Intimidate, Perception, and Ride
Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Toughness
+6str, +2int, +4wis, +4cha
Bunch of special abilities, including Phantom Mount, Undead Mastery, Devastating Blast, Channel Destruction
and finally, the ability to return from the dead.

[Java Man]

You make a very compelling arguement, if you think the +2 is balanced for the others, then I would think +1 sounds right for skeletal champ.

[Cyrad]

You're suggesting skeletal champion should be a +1 CR template instead of having a CR that's skeleton CR +1?

[Olaf the Holy]

Yes? Skeleton cr+1 leads to silly things like applying it to a fighter 18 and then the CR drops to 9.

Which is obviously stupid.

[DonDuckie]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Yes? Skeleton cr+1 leads to silly things like applying it to a fighter 18 and then the CR drops to 9.

Which is obviously stupid.

I believe class levels increase CR by 1 per level. How do you get fighter 18 is CR 9?

Undead racial HD and class HD are not the same.

[Olaf the Holy]

DonDuckie wrote:

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Yes? Skeleton cr+1 leads to silly things like applying it to a fighter 18 and then the CR drops to 9.

Which is obviously stupid.

I believe class levels increase CR by 1 per level. How do you get fighter 18 is CR 9?

Undead racial HD and class HD are not the same.

For one thing, that's not true (it depends on whether they're associated class levels), and for another, because that's what the template says to change the CR to after you've applied it.

That's how templates work. You have a base creature (in this case a fighter 18), and then you apply the effects of the template, changing the CR in the procces. You're thinking of monster advancement. I'm not adding class levels to anything.

The template makes no distinction between Racial and Class HD, and while that distinction exists, it requires the mentioning of either 'Racial Hit Dice' or 'Class Hit Dice' to come into effect. The overall 'Hit Dice' term includes both racial HD and class HD.

[DonDuckie]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

DonDuckie wrote:

Olaf the Holy wrote:

Yes? Skeleton cr+1 leads to silly things like applying it to a fighter 18 and then the CR drops to 9.

Which is obviously stupid.

I believe class levels increase CR by 1 per level. How do you get fighter 18 is CR 9?

Undead racial HD and class HD are not the same.

For one thing, that's not true (it depends on whether they're associated class levels), and for another, because that's what the template says to change the CR to after you've applied it.

That's how templates work. You have a base creature (in this case a fighter 18), and then you apply the effects of the template, changing the CR in the procces. You're thinking of monster advancement. I'm not adding class levels to anything.

The template makes no distinction between Racial and Class HD, and while that distinction exists, it requires the mentioning of either 'Racial Hit Dice' or 'Class Hit Dice' to come into effect. The overall 'Hit Dice' term includes both racial HD and class HD.

Okay, that explains the calculation.

I don't agree that the template doesn't distinguish between the racial and class (it says "same HD" - rather than "same number of HD"). I read it as you use the skeleton CR table for the undead racial HD and add CR increase according to class levels to that - and finally +1 CR.

For example; a 10 undead racial HD skeleton does not have the same HD as a 5 undead racial HD skeletal champion fighter 5th.
They have the same number of HD but not "the same HD".

Another:
A minotaur fighter 4th: 10 HD / CR 8
After skeletal champion template: 12 HD / CR 7 (your calculation as I understand it)
After skeletal champion template: 12 HD / CR 9 (my calculation: 8 racial HD => CR 4 + 4 (fighter 4th) + 1 (template))

And I'm fairly confident my method is in agreement with RAW.

And answering

Quote:

You're thinking of monster advancement. I'm not adding class levels to anything.

18 levels of fighter were added at some point in your example. It doesn't matter in which order you build a monster.

1) Minotaur dies -> becomes skeletal champion -> gains 10 class levels
2) Minotaur gains 10 class levels -> dies -> becomes skeletal champion
The CR should be the same, because it's the same monster - and the rules for customizing suggest you look at similar power level and adjust to that. And given I consider the minotaur with the template stronger than without, I would choose the higher CR - and I believe/claim that the rules for skeletal champion template do as well.

[Olaf the Holy]

I'm pretty specifically thinking about humanoids here, not minotaurs. It's true that you add them to a monster, sure, but there has to be a monster in the first place. You never have a human without any class levels - those don't exist. If they did, they'd have a racial HD of humanoid instead (because class levels replace racial HD of 1 for humanoids), and then you'd end up with 3 levels of undead racial HD instead of two.

Besides, the method you're looking at produces nonsensical results. Graveknight or vampire Fighter 18 is CR 19. You're telling me that the same Fighter as a skeletal champion should be CR 20? That don't make no sense.

As for how you're reading HD; 'Hit Dice' is a general game term that means 'Class HD + Racial HD'. So yes, 10RHD skeleton champion has the same HD as 5RHD + 5class HD skeletal champion, because 10=5+5.

[DonDuckie]

Why do they (0 HD races) get 3 undead racial HD? I don't follow that. They just get 2 HD. Right?

Yes that formula would result in CR 20 which is better than CR 9. Which is again why I referred to the important rule of thumb: compare to similar CR monsters when customizing monsters, which this is.

The CR system is not perfect and comparing templates with different requirements on the base creature, may not always give logic results, especially when power is reduced to a single number; like fighter 20 vs. wizard 17 (a bit extreme, but illustrates the problem with CRs calculated only by formula.)

Re-reading the CR entry for skeletal champion I can see your arguments, it just doesn't make sense to me to consider class levels worth only about half for this creature (solely).
So I take it - "normal skeleton with the same HD" - to mean "normal skeleton with the same racial HD advanced with class levels" (even though they can't - that's irrelevant, sorry for mentioning it)

I still read "same HD" as taking into account race and class. And that way the formula makes more sense. Ie. no skeletal champion sorcerer 18th against my poor APL 6-9 party.

If it was to be read as "same number of HD", it would use those words. (In a perfect world with no legacy system issues etc.)

But your way is also RAW, the language is ambiguous. I admit that.