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I'm posting this on my phone, so I'll skip the usual preamble I make (also, sorry for any GSP errors I make due to the tiny keyboard). In short, I want to make magic items much more special. I want to make it worth delving a dungeon or following a lengthy quest in order to find a magic sword or ring that the player can use for most if not all of the rest of their adventuring career without having to resort to artifacts or periodically upgrading the item to match their curremt power level, pretending it's the same thing all along. For one, it matches the feel of classic myths and fantasy much better.
What would be the best way to implement this? I'm aware of e6 and things like that, but I'm not wanting to go low magic - I want players to grow through all the usual 20 levels in their classes, and face all tfhe same powerful monsters, just to have masterwork or +1 weapons/armor be the default throughout. I believe saves, attack bonuses, and AC will take the biggest hits from this. Should I givve PCs an extra inheent boost to these, or nerf monsters, or something else entirely? Are there non-numerical repercussions from removing magic items that I should be aware of?
Use a generous point buy as well.
1) There's a system in Unchained for simply giving the PC's the standard bonuses they get from magic items. The big 6 in items can just be ignored, and you can hand out minor alternative items as you want.
2) The whole game is balanced on the WBL system and PC's being able to get those bonuses at level appropriate times. If you crack down on magic items, you're going to need to rebalance the whole game if you don't replace the effect.
3) Not having magic items hugely discriminates against non-caster classes, who can replace the bonuses from gear with cast spells. Alas, not enough spells to go around. So only casters will be buffed, and everyone else can sit and stew.
i.e. the cleric casts Greater magic Weapon on his morningstar for +3, casts a +3 Greater Magic Vestment on his armor and shield, and the fighter just sucks it.
To keep things even, you'd have to massively restrict casters ...which ends up with a low magic system.
4) other then option 1, you're making a lot of work and potential grief for yourself. If you want a low magic item campaign, you need a low magic campaign, and probably a level limit. E6 or E8 is probably your best bet.
remember this: PC's get most of their stat raises and extra TH/dmg from magic items.
Monsters get their bonuses from huge stat lines.
Huge stat lines are NOT affected when you restrict magic items.
4e did something similar, with very few stat raising things, but much more automatic stat raises by level.
5e is doing this by capping ability scores and magic items, so you don't need huge bonuses to stats to get to be uber.
I.e. you need a totally different game to pull this off smoothly.
I'm not trying to discourage you...I'm just telling you what you need to do to play this in the Pathfinder system.
==Aelryinth
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Right after posting this I did realize that spellcasting would also be fairly problematic with this. Although, it seems to me that basic buffs (bonuses to attack, AC, etc.) would largely just zero out the inherent advantages martial characters have in those areas. Greater magic weapon brings the cleric's BAB to +18 at 20th while the fighter still has +20. +3 likewise makes up the difference between the cleric's medium armour and the fighter's heavy. Granted, the fighter has to deal with greater skill check penalties but he gets to walk around with his extra +3 the whole time while the cleric has to spend a spell slot to get a temporary bonus. In fact, consider that without stat-boosting items, only the most determined of min-maxers will be eble to get a casting stat even as high as the low 20s, so they'll get fewer spells per day. While it feels a bit weird thematically, nixing scrolls (at least to cast from - probably still allow them to exist for wizards to learn from) and wands is xellcertaibly required for balance. All-in-all, martial characters may benefit more obviously from magic items, but I don't think any class or group of classes relies on them significantly more than any other. Except maybe the monk... But maybe not. I'll have to consider that one rather carefully. At the end of the day, the rules assumptions on magic items also include all classes have equal access to all magic items, so without them, the majority should be on as equal footing as they are with them. If nothing else, fighters may hit a little less hard, but mages become significantly squishier to make up for it since they lose out on protection items.
But yes, monsters as written will be significantly more deadly. So I suppose the question is how much of their ability scores, natural armour, and so on are to counteract players' magic items?
I see alot of things involving mechanics here.
I'd like to suggest something a bit simpler to implement. The Living Arcanis campaign required that all weapons be named when they were enchanted. Frequently there would be items that would have individual flavor, such as the flintlock that was haunted by the Midlandese noble who died while using it in the rebellion against the Coryani Empire. Each time it was fired, it would yell out "For the honor of Milandir!"
Names, and quirks that don't give mechanical advantage are easy, and balanced ways to give flavor to otherwise bog standard magic items.
Lawrence, do you really want to edit every single monster in the beastiary, and every single module?
As for gear...sorry, martials are FAR more dependent on items then casters are.
Casters don't NEED stat buffs. They need a 19 at most to cast every spell on their lists. The bonus spells are gravy...extra spells which now limit what they cast on/for others.
Martials are very dependent on strong magic weapons so their iterative attacks can hit, and stat bonuses for more hp.
Fighters won't EVER be able to max out their class Armor TRaining bonus, because it requires an ever-higher dex score to do so. And you're not letting them get that Dex score.
And Greater Magic weapon and Magic Vestment top out at +5 at 20th. Meaning he hits as much as the fighter, does more damage, and has a MUCH higher AC. His buffs can last all day and more with Extend Spell. sure, his save-or-dies are less useful...so he doesn't use them, he just buffs himself.
Spellcasters have options to shift their focus...they just pick different spells to cover the holes that magic items covered.
Non-casters don't have the option, because you are taking it away.
==Aelryinth
Automatic bonus progression works wonders. I swear by it, as I prefer rarity in my magic items as well. You should look at that. They even have an adjusted rule for practically giving no equipment away, which I tend to use.
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I'll look into the automatic progression thing, but the more I think about it, E6 or E8 may actually be the way I want to go. One of the particular advantages it seems to have is that since characters are all much closer in power level, low-level characters remain... if not entirely viable, at least not an out-right hindrance, and can close that gap much more quickly. Which allows for new characters and/or a revolving cast, which in turn allows for a lot of possibilities.
However, what I wonder about it is what happens when powerful magic items are introduced? Because my goal with any of this isn't to eliminate magical items, just to make them special again. Do typical higher-level magic items utterly break the game, even when introduced in small numbers? Outside of the typical narrative and mechanical game-breakers, is there any magic - high or low level - that I should be particularly aware of?
I'll look into the automatic progression thing, but the more I think about it, E6 or E8 may actually be the way I want to go. One of the particular advantages it seems to have is that since characters are all much closer in power level, low-level characters remain... if not entirely viable, at least not an out-right hindrance, and can close that gap much more quickly. Which allows for new characters and/or a revolving cast, which in turn allows for a lot of possibilities.
However, what I wonder about it is what happens when powerful magic items are introduced? Because my goal with any of this isn't to eliminate magical items, just to make them special again. Do typical higher-level magic items utterly break the game, even when introduced in small numbers? Outside of the typical narrative and mechanical game-breakers, is there any magic - high or low level - that I should be particularly aware of?
An e6 game is typically restricted to +1 or +2 weapons/effects. Adding a legendary +5 weapon in there will be noticeable, but won't 'break' anything.
adding something that can cast at 12th level? That might break something.
At 20th level, you can expect the following is desired by martial players:
+10 armor (100k)
+10 weapon (200k)
+10 Shield OR +7 Secondary weapon (100k)
+5 Ring of Prot (50k)
+5 Cloak of Res (25k)
+5 Amulet/Nat Armor (50k)
+6 Str/Dex/Con belt (100k)
+5 Secndary weapon (bow vs sword) (50k)
+5 Inherent bonus to 2 main stats (250k)
------------==825k. out of 880k.
+Healing Items
Storage items
Flying Items
Teleporting items
Magical Ammunition with the remaining 55k. Oh, and weird, quirky and interesting items that don't take up the essentials.
The big 6 take up a HUGE amount of money, and inherent stats do, too.
A wizard or cleric can waive the Magic Weapon and Magic Armor costs...they can sub with spells. Clerics can waive the Ring of Prot. Druids can waive Nat Armor. Wildshape or Polymorph/Form of the X spells can sub for physical stat increases, buff spells can grant short term ability score enhancements.
High level wizards, their biggest sunk cost is Greater Metamagic Rods and stat buffers, including inherents. They don't need +10 magic weapons and armor at all. They don't even need the rods...they can just sigh and use metamagic feats without stacking to uber power.
Seriously, think of a caster hulking out with morphing spells, and Melees don't even get the equivalent of Bull's Strength to use...but casters do. Massive advantage to casters.
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Summary: You have to get those stats to martials if you want to play at high level. Magic items or auto progression, both work. It's balancing the scales. they are still at a disadvantage, because they have to play or wait to get stuff that matches spells, but at least they GET it.
In 5e, they went and restricted the max for normal loot to +3, which helps cut down on the power level of stuff, and maxed out stats for humans in the 20-24 range, and so topped the limit there, to help keep things in control. Restricting stats and the top end of magic helps keep things in control.
So does controlling the maximum levels of spells in a campaign.
An E6 campaign will focus a LOT more on teamwork, and gaining ever more stacking cross-class abilities as you 'gain levels' past e6, but don't 'go up' in level. Throwing in legendary weapons only shift the numbers a few points, they won't break anything, and let you throw some 'mighty' creatures at the characters they wouldn't be able to face otherwise.
Special note: The item craftng rules allow you to create gear above your level/casting level if you can make the spellcraft check. You'll have to watch that, and restrict what can be made.
As for REALLY powerful, high level magic items in an E6 world...they basically become artifacts or MacGuffins...everyone wants it, and blood will be spilled and wars fought over ownership of the item. They cease to have monetary value because they are unbuyable. Owning one is a thing for kings and nations, not PC's.
==Aelryinth
Stuff that breaks the game is either powerful or can be used frequently/permanently.
Troublesome things:
Rings of Invisibility, or anything else providing large skill modifiers.
Anything that teleports (makes travels superfluous).
Anything that allows continual flight (as teleport, obviates movement skills).
Fabricate. (obviates crafting skills)
Stuff allowing dimensional travel. (as teleport)
Shapechanging stuff. (free movement modes and stat buffs)
Summoning stuff (esp numbers of it) (access to spells, bodies, combat ability)
Stuff with DR (because you're going to need a golf bag of weapons to bypass it, instead of one good weapon).
Anything with high stats or save DC's (because you don't have save buffing tools).
Complete access to spell lists (because it encourages cherry picking)
Large spell lists (because it HELPS cherry picking and crossing roles).
Pets without penalties (easily replaceable means unvalued).
==Aelryinth
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Thanks. While I've been playing d20 systems since middle school, my groups never really breached the low teens in character level. And while I've done a lot of theory-crafting of level 20 characters, these have all been very strongly fluff-based, with only minimal nods to mechanics. Spellcasters rarely have a casting stat as high as 22, because there are tons of magic items that suit the flavour so much more. When I do bend rules it's to allow things like a pair of gauntlets, one frost made from fire-forged steel and one flaming and made from frost-forged steel to trigger their effects from being struck together (a move action) - hardly game-breaking. So my mind's kind of flabbergasted at that summary of what gear is expected. Aside from the armour and weapon(s), I always worked from the assumption that characters would have at most two or three of those items, and even of those two or three, only one or two of them at its full power. And if you thought that was naive, you should see my theorycrafted spell lists (though I actually do know how unoptimized those are - that's entirely intentional; again, flavour... probably also why our other GM - the one who isn't me - never considered summoners a problem, as I'm actually one of the more crunch-minded players in our group).
However, I've recently been wanting to start a super-long Warcraft campaign that roughly follows the game (though transforming the webs of quests into a single coherent adventure) all the way from the starting zones to ...well, now the Wandering Isles (in theory), so I've been trying to figure out a way to get around the various problems that can obviously arise from using the same characters that entire time. Also, to provide a decent reason to do dungeons versus quest zones, as well as raids and legendary items that players will want to keep using for a long time, but that the GM won't regret. Hence low magic items. E6 also seems to solve a bunch of other problems that I'd been wrestling with like leveling through all that time (which I was previously planning to do by ignoring XP and just award levels at various fixed points based on how far along in the plot the players are). And numerous other problems that I basically kept refusing to acknowledge like save-or-die spells or how to keep players from simply flying - let alone teleporting - to the top of Icecrown Citadel, and so on. Bonus points for also remedying narrative problems like Garrosh being magnitudes more powerful than two Old Gods.
...There were two other questions I had just thought of to ask while writing all of this, but now I only kind of remember one, which I'm not even sure actually was one: how might flying mounts fit into an E6 game? I've been leaning against including them, but I do want to give all things due consideration before ruling one way or the other, particularly when ruling against their inclusion would require some narrative hand-waving since they are fairly plentiful in the setting. While flight obviously causes problems, I think that's more to do with the comparative freedom of self-powered flight from spells or magic items, no? A flying mount that you have to ride comes with drawbacks like only being usable outdoors, much more subject to bad weather conditions (particularly useful for keeping players from flying to the top of Icecrown, for example), upkeep costs, and being dismounted. While there are still going to be some necessary departures, Warcraft actually provides some possible fixes for implementing at least some of the otherwise problematic abilities. Teleportation spells, for example, exist, but can only be used to go to certain specific places, or requires powerful mages and extreme concentration (essentially rituals).
I have done this in a game, and the players unlock powers as they progress. I have the items mapped out. Much of what they can do is items that do things other itmes would do, but combined. So about the time they would pick up another item, they discover another power, or some such. And some items are easy to tweak.
I made a staff of healing with extra charges, and the ability to be recharged with 12 hours of direct sunlight (12 hours per charge). Not that big a jump.
In the context of home brew games do you really need to rebalance things? PC power levels are already REALLY swingy player to player so the CR system has never been all that helpful in general so wouldn't you have to adjust the threat levels of monsters anyway?
Flying mounts: You touched on many of the limitations, but missed the most important one...enemies can kill the mount.
You can't kill a wizard's ability to cast overland flight, or a flying carpet, or a pair of winged boots, or the power to wildshape into an eagle.
Flying mounts are perfectly fine...but, should be expensive and/or rare. You have to take care of the bloody thing. That means adding upkeep time or cost. It has to be trained, equipped and looked after.
Also, most flying mounts have no ability to hover. That can be VERY important. And as you noted, they don't work in tight spaces.
Flying mounts are damage magnets, adventurers are a high-risk occupation and are probably going to get the mounts killed. They probably won't be available until level 6, and the PC's should think of flying mounts as something hugely valuable and very hard to replace. At the same time, bringing such things into combat should be very lethal...of course you're going to shoot down the griffon! And once it's dead, they have no way to replace it without probably months of time and effort.
At the level you let them have flying mounts, you should be using them simply as a plot vehicle to cover long distances, akin to boarding a train or dirigible. If you let them take the mounts into combat...let the chips fall where they may, and don't replace them. Treat each and every mount as a magical item in and of themselves.
And you are going to have to keep a VERY close eye on Crafting, if you allow it at all. Letting PC's make their choice of magic items will derail what you are trying to do faster then anything else.
lastly, restricted magic items was actually the 'norm' for 1e and 2e...while you certainly could have an Xmas tree of goodies, it wasn't required or even expected...it was just nice to have.
And making your own items, of course, was nigh impossible.
==Aelryinth
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Eh, the way my group plays, we've generally been well suited for encounters with an EL around our average level. Boss-type encounters tend to be APL+3 or so. But as I mentioned, we've never really broken past level 13 or 14 in any d20-based game. Or used significant system overhauls before. I think the most drastic house rule we use is that if an ability that is described in a feat can be reasonably attempted by a typical adventurer, you can try it with a penalty of some sort, and weapons that are extremely similar can be used as such as long as you're proficient with both (a spear like a quarterstaff for example). So we're pretty much just guessing when it comes to more drastic changes.
There were two other questions I had just thought of to ask while writing all of this, but now I only kind of remember one, which I'm not even sure actually was one: how might flying mounts fit into an E6 game? I've been leaning against including them, but I do want to give all things due consideration before ruling one way or the other, particularly when ruling against their inclusion would require some narrative hand-waving since they are fairly plentiful in the setting. While flight obviously causes problems, I think that's more to do with the comparative freedom of self-powered flight from spells or magic items, no? A flying mount that you have to ride comes with drawbacks like only being usable outdoors, much more subject to bad weather conditions (particularly useful for keeping players from flying to the top of Icecrown, for example), upkeep costs, and being dismounted. While there are still going to be some necessary departures, Warcraft actually provides some possible fixes for implementing at least some of the otherwise problematic abilities. Teleportation spells, for example, exist, but can only be used to go to certain specific places, or requires powerful mages and extreme concentration (essentially rituals).
One of the things you can do is to make powerful magic items themselves limited, so that they can only be used when you've planned (and balanced) for them to be used.
For example, they can be
* consumable. You can break this gem to get a time stop effect, but you can only do it once, and you can't use it to scribe into your spellbook or enchant a staff.
* time-limited. This is a ritual spell that can only be done once per month, or even at odd intervals related to (abstract, semi-predictable) astrological events like planetary conjunctions.
* location-limited. Teleportation can only happen between certain sets of stone circles, so you can travel from Stonehenge to Ville-ès-Nouaux, but not simply from room B-16 of the dungeon to parking lot of the Spell*Mart on I-66. To make a simulacrum, you need to be inside chamber of simulacra, located in the heart of the Lonely Mountain, and so forth.
* use-limited. The +5 sword is actually a +1 sword, +5 and keen vs. dragons.
* expensive. The item requires a (consumable) MacGuffin quest item to power, and you can't just pay gold pieces for it.
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Flying mounts: You touched on many of the limitations, but missed the most important one...enemies can kill the mount.
Well, I considered that wrapped up in "being dismounted". But yeah, I guess killing it is a bit worse than simply dismounting since you then have to buy a new one all over again. It is my group, not me, who will be playing this one, but if it were me, I'd probably only use my flying mount for overland travel. Then again, I tend to be particularly paranoid about losing my stuff. That said, I don't think I'll disallow players using their mounts whenever they want - they would be investing a hefty chunk of change into getting them, after all, so they should get to do with them what they will, but yeah, I won't be providing mount insurance. It's entirely their responsibility to look after.
As for crafting, I really like it in concept (and I've been an engineer ever since I started playing WoW, so for me, crafting and Warcraft go practically hand-in-hand), but magical items supersede the use of Craft skills pretty quickly. I've been thinking I'd put a cap on crafted magical weapons and armour at about +2 (including special abilities). Probably use that as a baseline to figure out what other magic items can and can't be crafted, and make that the hard cap. The only possible exceptions being epic items that would require adventuring just to get the materials required (like how you have to make your way through the depths of Blackrock Mountain to forge something out of dark iron) to make them, but then that's more of a delayed adventuring reward than crafted item, and I'm not sure how I'd rule on the particulars since it seems remarkably cruel to force the player to fight all the way through that just to fail a skill check... Maybe I'll simply require a certain number of skill ranks to qualify for the quest, a few checks before the adventure starts in order to prepare the materials, and let it automatically succeed once they're at the site.
Couple of tips on crafting:
Don't let them use the custom crafting rules to make their own items. They'll break it quickly by abusing the /day or /charge rules.
Restrict items to those they can make with their base CL. So, nothing requiring a CL higher then 6. This naturally restricts many bonus items to +2.
Require them to BUY or research the formula for each magic item - that means Ring +1 and Ring +2 are different items. I would price them as a scroll of whatever the Caster Level is. So, a +2 weapon would require them forking out the cost of buying a level 6 scroll.
Also, enforce pre-reqs. They MUST know how to make a +1 weapon before they can make the +2.
You might really want to limit the total number of enhancements on a weapon. Even at CL 6, you can make a +2 Holy Bane Keen Lawful Flaming Burst weapon, you know.
i.e. taking the feat is cheap, easy and free. Forcing them to pay for each and every magic item they want to make, above and beyond component costs, is equal to researching each item themselves without spending the time to do so. They won't be able to afford the formula for anything except the stuff they really want the most, and those formulas are VALUABLE...just like the magic items they make.
Note that if you have magic items rare, letting PC's make them is logically a road to wealth.
I would actually have basic magic items fairly common (since any level 3 person could make a +1 item), but +2 items quite rare, as well as anything using a 3rd level spell, both from formula cost and the rarity of level 6 people. +3 items should be legendary class and famous relics.
I would also do something like forcing the expenditure of actual spells to make charged objects. No making a wand of CLW in one day. You actually have to have 50 CLW spells cast into the thing, and the time required to do that is part of the production time. Having mass amounts of low level spells is extremely powerful in a low level campaign.
==Aelryinth
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Oh yeah, I noticed how broken the custom crafting rules were when I first got a copy of the DMG back in middle school, and they haven't changed much in Pathfinder.
Buying formulas is an interesting thought, and conveniently fits right alongside how that works in the game (aside from some basic items, which can also be worked in).
You might really want to limit the total number of enhancements on a weapon. Even at CL 6, you can make a +2 Holy Bane Keen Lawful Flaming Burst weapon, you know.
But wouldn't that be a +9 weapon? I've already decided to make the limit +2, including special abilities (so even a +1 flaming burst longsword would be outside the player's ability to make, though I might consider allowing a (+0) flaming burst longsword). Or might that be too low?
And I was thinking I'd just ban wands altogether. Or perhaps make them like a combination between wand and metamagic rod where they have X charges of a metamagic feat that they can apply to a specific spell (determined by the wand) when cast (by the character, using their normal spellcasting ability). Or just have wands act as normal, but they require expending a spell slot when used, essentially allowing for a sort of limited spontaneous casting ability. Which of those three might you suggest? (The way our group usually handles time outside adventures, whether a wand takes one day or one week to make wouldn't make much of a difference. ...I guess aside from the fact that you'd only be able to make a seventh as many wands, but then I imagine just one or two normal wands would still be fairly disruptive in a E6 game.)
ah, you're limiting to +2 in total. Okay, thought you were limiting to +2 and +2 equivalents. I'd personally allow +4 total, allowing them to eventually make a +2 Holy Sword, which would be a defining, mighty weapon. No opinion either way...do what's best!
No need to ban wands. Just make it so they can't churn them out in one day, like CLW wands. Wands of second level spells would take a SIGNIFICANT amount of downtime to make. Even better if you don't allow partial casting times and non-concurrent work...all at one go, or nothing. And then ask what the rest of the party is doing during the ten days where the wizard is casting mirror Images into his wand, etc.
Letting them be used with spell slots instead turns them into virtual Pages of Spell Knowledge, only wizards can use them, too, a completely different kind of item. You'd also have to rule on the resulting caster level. It's a backhanded way of expanding their available spell book or Spells Known, I guess.
Expending charges to power a metamagic feat for a specific spell means pricing up a new paradigm for such. I'm not at all sure how to price such a thing out, or how to make it. It would be more powerful then a Rod, since you'd use charges and could do so many times in one day, but it would run out eventually, and also be restricted to one spell. Perhaps it would just cost the same as a wand of the same spell level as the metamagic feat it focuses, I don't know. I.e. a wand to Maximize a Fireball cast by the wielder costs the same as a 3rd level wand.
Oh, and because you're playing E6, I recommend heavily you move Sorceror SPells known and castable down one level. They are going to be limited enough in spells as it is.
==Aelryinth
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Well I was thinking that it could apply any metamagic feat (at least any of the ones from the core book) to the wand's spell, but that using it would cost one charge for each extra spell level the feat would normally increase the spell by (and obviously, only allowing one feat to be applied at a time). Mulling it over, it's an interesting idea, but fairly complicated, and yes, would require figuring out a new pricing structure. I might kick it around some more, but I don't think it's what I'll plan to go with.
ANY MM feat they have? Wow. That would be...nice. Can they stack more then one?
That's...really strong, even if its only for one spell. I would probably restrict it to ONE MM feat, so you know the effect and cost, and can control it and price it accordingly.
==Aelryinth
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I said only one could be applied at a time. Obviously being able to apply every core MM feat to a single spell would be way too powerful, even if it takes up half the wand's charges and can only be done to the wand's specific spell. But yeah, even so, it is a really swingy ability that would be exceptionally difficult to be sure is balanced. As I said, I think I'll toy with it some because it is an interesting mechanic, but I don't think I'll actually use it. Except maybe throwing one (and only one) into a game to see how it behaves in practice.
Artificers from Eberron had a similar ability with Metamagic Infusion. they could 1) use an infusion to add a metamagic effect to an item they were holding. So, add Empower to a Scorching Ray wand.
and 2) Use Metamagic Item with charged items, paying the cost of a single metamagic effect with the charges of the item on a 1:1 basis. So, two charges to pay for an Empower effect on a wand.
So, in practice, they'd throw a Twin Spell or Maximize on the wand with INfusion, and then buy the Empower Effect with charges. Add in Wand Master or Cannith Wand adept to increase the caster level of a wand, and they could do serious damage with wands.
==Aelryinth