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The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.
There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.
So what do you think?
Is this just a +1 bonus or do you get to actually use the shield without losing the bonus to AC?
If someone was complaining about a +1 bonus feel free to ignore them unless there is more to the story, and if it takes 3 feats to get a +3 bonus go back to ignoring them.
You can use the buckler and your weapon without losing the bonus, but a prerequisite is the Shield Focus feat, so you have to spend at least 2 feats to get into it.
Or play a Fighter, they can skip SF I believe by doing something? But unless that something also disallows stacking with SF then there would be no reason to not take it if you're going for a higher AC.
The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.
There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.
So what do you think?
Is this just a +1 bonus or do you get to actually use the shield without losing the bonus to AC?
If someone was complaining about a +1 bonus feel free to ignore them unless there is more to the story, and if it takes 3 feats to get a +3 bonus go back to ignoring them.You can use the buckler and your weapon without losing the bonus, but a prerequisite is the Shield Focus feat, so you have to spend at least 2 feats to get into it.
Or play a Fighter, they can skip SF I believe by doing something? But unless that something also disallows stacking with SF then there would be no reason to not take it if you're going for a higher AC.
OK, so it si simpler to teh 3.5 feat. That does make it a nice combo, but I don't think it means the ability is too good. I think it means other melee options are too weak.
Maybe we can get some mobility based feats that allow the character to move and make more than one attack, even if it is at a penalty.
Being able to make two attack rolls while using spring attack would be a good addition in my opinion. Call it "double strike" or something.
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I think Paizo also just sold a book to me, and if they errata this feat, as a GM I am keeping the original version.
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So if I'm going normal Unchained Monk using a weapon for PFS I pick up power attack and maybe weapon focus. There are just so many monk specific feats to get. :P
Damn, those goalposts are FAST!
You started with Feats a Monk "wants" then swiftly moved to Feats a Monk must have...and then COMPLETELY swapped gears to a specific fighting style of an entirely different class AND implied you had meant "Monk specific" Feats the whole time! In only 3 posts!
That has to be some kind of record.
The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.
There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.
So what do you think?
Is this just a +1 bonus or do you get to actually use the shield without losing the bonus to AC?
If someone was complaining about a +1 bonus feel free to ignore them unless there is more to the story, and if it takes 3 feats to get a +3 bonus go back to ignoring them.You can use the buckler and your weapon without losing the bonus, but a prerequisite is the Shield Focus feat, so you have to spend at least 2 feats to get into it.
Or play a Fighter, they can skip SF I believe by doing something? But unless that something also disallows stacking with SF then there would be no reason to not take it if you're going for a higher AC.
Characters with Armor Training can skip Shield Focus. So Fighters, Myrmidarch Magi, or anyone with VMC Fighter. Of course they would have to wait until they actually had Armor Training 1.
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Characters with Armor Training can skip Shield Focus. So Fighters, Myrmidarch Magi, or anyone with VMC Fighter. Of course they would have to wait until they actually had Armor Training 1.The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.
There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.
So what do you think?
Is this just a +1 bonus or do you get to actually use the shield without losing the bonus to AC?
If someone was complaining about a +1 bonus feel free to ignore them unless there is more to the story, and if it takes 3 feats to get a +3 bonus go back to ignoring them.You can use the buckler and your weapon without losing the bonus, but a prerequisite is the Shield Focus feat, so you have to spend at least 2 feats to get into it.
Or play a Fighter, they can skip SF I believe by doing something? But unless that something also disallows stacking with SF then there would be no reason to not take it if you're going for a higher AC.
Which for fighters is third level, although most fighters still like to trade out armor training. Mutation Warrior is attractive despite advanced armor training.
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Aelryinth, a serious question for you:
For the classes who could use this the most, it is cripplingly feat-intensive to take. What THREE FEATS out of TEN are you going to sacrifice on a Magus or Monk for this, and how do you think that is going to effect everything you do with that character from then on?
Before you go off on a rant about it 'not being three Feats,' keep in mind that neither of those two classes have Shield proficiency, which means they have to take that, then Shield Focus, THEN Unhindered Shield.
One level in fighter, brawler or any other class that offers shield prof and a bonus feat at level 1; two levels of ranger or stalker. Or three levels in fighter if you want to skip shield focus.
Above they recommended Bloodrager.
And while AC may seem less relevant at high levels, a +7 AC bonus is a massive swing in how often you get hit. Normal AC tends to max out in the neighborhood of AC 40 or so, sans defensive fighting or class bonuses. Shield use instantly pops this to 47.
A standard pit fiend has a TH bonus of +30. It will go from needing a 10 to hit you to needing a 17...which is a 60% reduction in damage.
A CR 20 balor has +31 to hit, and isn't much better off.
A CR 20 Red Dragon has +38. It basically went from only missing you on a 1 to missing you 40% of the time. That is a HUGE amount of damage mitigation.
And this isn't even taking into account something like Defender shenanigans, where you use an Uber Shield for ANOTHER +5 typeless bonus to AC on top of the shield ac. Or standard buffs from Haste, Greater Heroism, etc.
People don't generally know this, but a sword and boarder with a good shield can often kill a 2h'er in one and one combat, simply because their shield offsets all of the greater damage of the 2h'er.
A bog standard fighter with 24 Dex (+7) (Starting 13, Dex belt, +Inherent,) wearing mithril full plate +5 (+14, using
+4 Armor training), and using an Uber Lg shield (+7 Shield, +5 defender for +12), with +5 ring and Amulet (+10), a +1 jingasa and +1 dusty rose stone, hits a 55 AC with NO other buffs...haste, greater heroism, fighting defensively, DODGE, expertise, etc etc.
That means that a Great Wyrm red dragon with + 37 to hit needs an 18 to hit him! If he merely fights defensively, it needs a natural 20!
Shields and the AC they bring can be HUGE. AC is only less significant at high levels if you are incapable of reaching a high AC. Since normal AC plateaus around a base 40 for most characters, its an understandable misconception that it is not important at high levels.
==Aelryinth
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A bog standard fighter with 24 Dex (+7) (Starting 13, Dex belt, +Inherent,) wearing mithril full plate +5 (+14, using
+4 Armor training), and using an Uber Lg shield (+7 Shield, +5 defender for +12), with +5 ring and Amulet (+10), a +1 jingasa and +1 dusty rose stone, hits a 55 AC with NO other buffs...haste, greater heroism, fighting defensively, DODGE, expertise, etc etc.
That means that a Great Wyrm red dragon with + 37 to hit needs an 18 to hit him! If he merely fights defensively, it needs a natural 20!
Shields and the AC they bring can be HUGE. AC is only less significant at high levels if you are incapable of reaching a high AC. Since normal AC plateaus around a base 40 for most characters, its an understandable misconception that it is not important at high levels.
Yes, but what is said fighter's offense? By using all of these AC buffs that remove to-hit (defender, TWF, fighting defensively) they are making themselves less of a threat, and an intelligent foe will simply ignore them, or switch to targeting touch AC or reflex saves.
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Ah ah. They are using defender on the SHIELD...and don't care if they hit with it. It doesn't impact their main weapon at all. They can spend their last iterative on it if they wish. Don't even have to use TWF.
Also, heard of the Guardian enhancement? Put it on the shield. +5 to saves if you don't want the AC.
They are using a one handed weapon. The falcata is the best DOT weapon in the game. A longsword, or bastard sword/katana used 1h also work fine.
And that's the rub. They are exchanging 2h'er dmg for single hand damage and a great, great AC.
And fighting defensively is an OPTION, that gets them even MORE AC (and dodge AC to boot). It doesn't affect the base AC of 47/55.
As for touch AC...his touch AC is as good as just about every other character in the game, except for a Monk or others with secondary stat to AC bonuses (a solid 29). He can also take feats or magic that let his shield and armor apply against touch attacks (or at least incorporeal, such as the vastly overpriced Ghost Ward).
To put it another way, a classic sword and boarder fighting a 2h'er, can use Power Attack and hit the 2h'er MORE OFTEN then the 2h'er hits him WITHOUT using Power Attack.
But, if you give the 2h'er shield ac...there is NO tradeoff. All the AC, and the best dmg. You can be the turtle, the tank AND the thunderbolt...you don't need to choose.
==Aelryinth
So if I'm going normal Unchained Monk using a weapon for PFS I pick up power attack and maybe weapon focus. There are just so many monk specific feats to get. :PDamn, those goalposts are FAST!
You started with Feats a Monk "wants" then swiftly moved to Feats a Monk must have...and then COMPLETELY swapped gears to a specific fighting style of an entirely different class AND implied you had meant "Monk specific" Feats the whole time! In only 3 posts!
That has to be some kind of record.
Sorry, I didn't mean to move any goalpost, more a matter of phrasing and clarifying my issue than a change of intent.
Feats a monk wants has and is the question. The examples were heavy on the unarmed combat, which wasn't what I was going for.
"I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take." My monks are weapon users. Since the examples were for unarmed I felt I should include that it's a weapon using monk that I was struggling to find feats for, as the only suggested feats applicable were weapon focus and power attack. Apparently if I was going unarmed I'd have plenty of feats I'd want to take. A Umonk is a monk, both can use a weapons, both behave very similarly to each other. If there are some major differences between the two and which feats they'd want then it's something I'm unaware of cause I feel they'd want the same things.
And sorry about the "wants, must have, and monk specific" They were all me saying the same thing, but apparently very poorly. To me, Feats a monks wants are feats that are really good for the monk. Some/a lot of people view feats that a class wants as "must have" like a barb "must have" raging vitality or how the kineticist "must have" some of the basic ranged combat feats, even how low will save classes "should have" iron will to help their save. And my "monk specific" was meaning feats a monk specifically would want, like the barb and kineticist examples above. Any class could find use of eldritch heritage or skill focus, but those aren't, at least to me, feats that a class wants, they're feats a specific character might want.
Then I threw in PFS cause I know if I didn't I'd get ascetic style (cause it is really awesome and I'm sad PFS wont allow the author's intended version) and I thought I'd nix non-PFS before they were suggested.
So the only "goalpost moved" was that it's a weapon using monk for PFS.
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So... you have a shield with a +6 enhancement bonus in addition to the +5 for enchanting it as a shield? And you don't even intend to use it to hit things? I'd hardly call that "bog standard". Not to mention that we're talking about Unhindered Shield, which requires a buckler, which can't be used as a weapon at all (and therefore cannot obtain the Defending ability) without spending even more feats and locking yourself out of any other styles.
So... you have a shield with a +6 enhancement bonus in addition to the +5 for enchanting it as a shield? And you don't even intend to use it to hit things? I'd hardly call that "bog standard". Not to mention that we're talking about Unhindered Shield, which requires a buckler, which can't be used as a weapon at all (and therefore cannot obtain the Defending ability) without spending even more feats and locking yourself out of any other styles.
I don't have the book in front of me, but the Armor Master's Handbook also has a feat to let you bash with a buckler.
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Yeah, that was the "even more feats" part of my statement. I'm personally of the opinion that someone who spends feats should be stronger than someone who does not, so naturally someone who spends five feats just so they can have a Defending Buckler should have a really high AC. I know I'm probably using those feats to Intimidate things instead.
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Not to mention that we're talking about Unhindered Shield, which requires a buckler, which can't be used as a weapon at all (and therefore cannot obtain the Defending ability) without spending even more feats and locking yourself out of any other styles.
Good point! Even if you have the ability to use a buckler as a weapon from Rondelero Duelist or Upsetting Shield Style, that doesn't make it a valid target for enchanting it as a weapon from Enchant Magic Arms and Armor.
There are no defending bucklers.
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...Right, "treat as a weapon" isn't the same as "is a weapon".
But if you look at an actual buckler, you can't strap it to your forearm. You just can't. It is made to be held with the hand. It's just wrong and my brain keeps shouting at how wrong it is. Especially since it says you can't make a shield bash with it, when that was practically the whole point of the buckler.
In Pathfinder, that would functionally be a light shield.
And my rejoinder is...I dunno, 1 combat feat for +5 touch AC seems like a good tradeoff.
An uber shield is 108k...which is 8k more then a +10 shield, if you want to go that route. it's also completely elective. it's an Uber shield, top of the line going for all the AC you can. It's certainly not mandatory. Maybe you just want heavy fortification, instead!
I will leave the issue of whether or not a buckler can be enchanted as a weapon up in the air. I personally believe it can be, but if you don't have the skill, you can't USE it as a weapon...that's the difference.
IS unhindered defense restricted to bucklers? I didn't think it was, only that bucklers had the lowest ACP.
And now I'm having visions of an Uber shield, a +5 Defending Gauntlet, and +5 Defending Armor spikes all being used in iterative off-hand attacks. "Darn! I missed with all the off-hand attacks. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my +15 to Touch AC!"
=Aelryinth
But if you look at an actual buckler, you can't strap it to your forearm. You just can't. It is made to be held with the hand. It's just wrong and my brain keeps shouting at how wrong it is. Especially since it says you can't make a shield bash with it, when that was practically the whole point of the buckler.In Pathfinder, that would functionally be a light shield.
Actually that's still incorrect, because with a light shield your hand is still free to do stuff, just not as much stuff as a buckler. But it can hold a holy symbol, cast a spell, lay on hands and all these without losing the sheild AC. Only the heavy shield is the hand used.
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Anybody playing a full caster should be laughing at this thread. Martial classes are absolutely pitiful and need all the help they can get, so no, this feat is not OP. Let's examine a hypothetical conversation about this feat between a Fighter and Wizard in the same party:
Fighter: Damn, but I am gonna rock! I just learned this feat and it's awesome, I'm so pumped!
Wizard: What does it do?
Fighter: I've learned how to use a greatsword and a buckler at the same time, and I only had to learn one prerequisite feat to do it!
Wizard: Ummmm...hmmm...
Fighter (annoyed): Why, what spell did you just learn?
Wizard: Plane Shift. Now when I tell people to go to hell, I can actually send them there!
Fighter: Why do you even let me hang out with you?
Wizard (shrugs): You're cheaper than a golem and you save me spell slots I'd have to use on Summon spells.
Fighter: I hate you.
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Yes - it's OP. It's not going to change martial/caster (as some seem to think a feat needs to be in order to be OP) but it is inherently FAR better than any of the other feats which boost AC, as it gives characters another cheap AC slot to enchant.
It would instantly become a must-have feat by mid-high levels for virtually everyone who uses a two-handed weapon or TWF.
Aelryinth, a serious question for you:
For the classes who could use this the most, it is cripplingly feat-intensive to take. What THREE FEATS out of TEN are you going to sacrifice on a Magus or Monk for this, and how do you think that is going to effect everything you do with that character from then on?
Before you go off on a rant about it 'not being three Feats,' keep in mind that neither of those two classes have Shield proficiency, which means they have to take that, then Shield Focus, THEN Unhindered Shield.
I know it is knit picking, but the magus can spend his THREE BONUS FEATS and still have ten available for other things.
I know with the current magus build I am running in Rapan Athuk, I have been considering a 1-2 level dip into rogue, freeing up three feats I have already taken. I was considering this before the Armor Master Handbook. Now, I could grab Unhindered Shield with just two of those freed up feats. My AC, already highest in the party by almost 10 points, would go up by 4 - 5 points at my current level.
So if I'm going normal Unchained Monk using a weapon for PFS I pick up power attack and maybe weapon focus. There are just so many monk specific feats to get. :PDamn, those goalposts are FAST!
You started with Feats a Monk "wants" then swiftly moved to Feats a Monk must have...and then COMPLETELY swapped gears to a specific fighting style of an entirely different class AND implied you had meant "Monk specific" Feats the whole time! In only 3 posts!
That has to be some kind of record.
Sorry, I didn't mean to move any goalpost, more a matter of phrasing and clarifying my issue than a change of intent.
Feats a monk wants has and is the question. The examples were heavy on the unarmed combat, which wasn't what I was going for.
"I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take." My monks are weapon users. Since the examples were for unarmed I felt I should include that it's a weapon using monk that I was struggling to find feats for, as the only suggested feats applicable were weapon focus and power attack. Apparently if I was going unarmed I'd have plenty of feats I'd want to take. A Umonk is a monk, both can use a weapons, both behave very similarly to each other. If there are some major differences between the two and which feats they'd want then it's something I'm unaware of cause I feel they'd want the same things.And sorry about the "wants, must have, and monk specific" They were all me saying the same thing, but apparently very poorly. To me, Feats a monks wants are feats that are really good for the monk. Some/a lot of people view feats that a class wants as "must have" like a barb "must have" raging vitality or how the kineticist "must have" some of the basic ranged combat feats, even how low will save classes "should have" iron will to help their save. And my "monk specific" was meaning feats a monk specifically would want, like the barb and kineticist examples above. Any class could find use of eldritch heritage or skill focus,...
Ah. Well, for your specific sub-set there, you want the same Feats most weapon users want (Power Attack, Improved Critical, maybe Lunge and Blind Fight).
A few Style Feats are still VERY useful for a weapon using UnMonk. Snake Style is good no matter who you are unless your AC is complete garbage.
As you say, Iron Will is a "must have" for low Will save classes.
There are lots of Feats a Monk (or UnMonk) wants. The only difference is that unlike most classes, the few class specific (i.e. "Has a requirement for Monk levels only") Feats that exist for the class suck ass. Spider Step? Really?
As well, there are very few of those in the game to begin with. I'll grant you Raging Vitality, but Kineticists can melee, and do so even better than they can ranged (now THERE'S a build you'd be hard pressed to find Feats you ant on...most of them don't even work with Kinetic Blade). Most classes don't have Feats they absolutely have to have Specific characters, yes, but not classes.
As you say, Iron Will is a "must have" for low Will save classes.
Is it? Is it really? Recently... I've found that saving throws are quite easy once the game reaches the double digits... It's way too easy to boost saving throws.
Anybody playing a full caster should be laughing at this thread. Martial classes are absolutely pitiful and need all the help they can get, so no, this feat is not OP. Let's examine a hypothetical conversation about this feat between a Fighter and Wizard in the same party:
Fighter: Damn, but I am gonna rock! I just learned this feat and it's awesome, I'm so pumped!
Wizard: What does it do?
Fighter: I've learned how to use a greatsword and a buckler at the same time, and I only had to learn one prerequisite feat to do it!
Wizard: Ummmm...hmmm...
Fighter (annoyed): Why, what spell did you just learn?
Wizard: Plane Shift. Now when I tell people to go to hell, I can actually send them there!
Fighter: Why do you even let me hang out with you?
Wizard (shrugs): You're cheaper than a golem and you save me spell slots I'd have to use on Summon spells.
Fighter: I hate you.
Ummm .... my wizards use shields. Now they can keep the bonus while casting with that hand.
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
Sounds like I'm not missing anything then. Nothing really special that I should be using feats on.
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
Actually, +10 at 5th level.
By 10th level, the fighter should have +5 - +6 just in enhancement bonuses from his cloak.
It's worth noting that, at least for certain classes, feats like Unhindering Shield are competing against some very good options which also provide (non-stacking) shield bonuses to AC. For example, consider the Advanced Weapon Training option "Defensive Weapon Training", which adds a +1+(weapon enhancement/2) shield bonus to your AC. Or the Avenger Vigilante's Shield of Blades, which adds a +1+(lvl/4) shield bonus to your AC. (Or, for that matter, the Shield spell...)
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
More like +11. Cloaks are cheap. You can easily have a +5 CoR by 10th level. Not to mention bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.
It's really, really easy to boost saving throws.
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
It is, and it unlocks Improved Iron Will which is even slightly better. That said, with Armed Bravery you can get half your class level on Will saves. So nowadays it's totally possible to cover this weak spot.
Back to the buckler: Increasing its enhancement bonus costs gold, yes. But it's cheaper to have +2 armor and a +2 buckler than +4 armor, for example. And if you have a nice divine caster in your party, they might even cast Magic Vestment for you.
This discussion is making me realize that my original question -- "is the unhindering shield feat too good?" -- might be taken a couple different (though related) ways. So perhaps we should distinguish between a couple different questions:
Q1. Does the unhindering shield feat change the relative attractiveness of the following different fighting styles?:
A. Two handed fighting
B. Two weapon fighting
C. One handed weapon with shield
D. One handed weapon without shield
Q2. Is the unhindering shield feat better than comparable AC increasing feats, like dodge, two weapon defense, shield focus, etc? And if so, how much better is it?
Q3. Is the unhindering shield feat overpowered, in the sense that it's impact on the mechanics of the game will be disruptive enough to make it ban-worthy?
I think Aelyrinth makes a good case for thinking the answer to Q1 is "yes".
I think the answers to the two-part Q2 are "yes", and "twice as good", respectively. (I defend the latter claim here.)
But I think the answer to Q3 is "no". Unlike dazing spell, or leadership, I'm skeptical that the introduction of the unhindering shield feat is going to have a disruptive impact on the mechanics of the game. (Especially given the existence in many cases of other, non-stackable, ways of getting shield bonuses.)
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
More like +11. Cloaks are cheap. You can easily have a +5 CoR by 10th level. Not to mention bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.
It's really, really easy to boost saving throws.
+11 is still pretty bad when at that level DC 27+ saves aren't uncommon.
Boostig saves is only easy if you take the options to boost saves. This is like saying a Cloak of Resistance isn't worthwhile because there are so many other ways to boost them.
Not overpowered in that it's 1-3 feats for 1 AC and to do anything more with it you have to spend quite a bit of gold.
Yes overpowered in that everyone who has the spare feats, doesn't get a shield bonus from another source and cares about their AC is going to want to pick it up, because it essentially turns your buckler into a slotless magical item.
It ends up being a little bit silly too because suddenly 'slap on a buckler and take unhindered shield' becomes one of the best ways to supplement AC. Barbarians with greataxes and bucklers, assassins with a pair of knives and a buckler, knights in shining platemail with a greatsword and a buckler. But eh.
I'd be okay with Unhindered Shield if there was another feat that let sword and board fighters swing their 1-handed sword as if it was a 2-handed weapon even when only using one hand.
There probably should be. Sword and Board is pretty bad unless you TWF and even then it's still not great. Shame that the book about armor does so little to actually make proper sword and board worthwhile. Even the tower shield feat tree isn't that great.
And now I'm having visions of an Uber shield, a +5 Defending Gauntlet, and +5 Defending Armor spikes all being used in iterative off-hand attacks. "Darn! I missed with all the off-hand attacks. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my +15 to Touch AC!"
Don't forget the defending boot blade and defending helmet.
I agree that this feat should be banned.
It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.
Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?
There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.
More like +11. Cloaks are cheap. You can easily have a +5 CoR by 10th level. Not to mention bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.
It's really, really easy to boost saving throws.
+11 is still pretty bad when at that level DC 27+ saves aren't uncommon.
Boostig saves is only easy if you take the options to boost saves. This is like saying a Cloak of Resistance isn't worthwhile because there are so many other ways to boost them.
Like I said, that's excluding bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.
The only classes that can keep their save DC's truly competitive are arcane full-casters, since they only need to boost their casting attribute.
What else can you do with two feats and 26,005 GP spent on slotless magic items* and how well does that compare to +7 to non-touch AC?
Ultimately that's the most important question here on whether or not the feat is overpowered.
*I know that someone without the +5 buckler can upgrade their other equipment further than someone who spent the money on it, but that makes things murkier, so I'm trying to keep it simple even if that makes the question ultimately biased in favor of the feat being too strong.
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People seem to be forgetting an important balance point in this discussion: The spell Shield.
Shield grants a +4 bonus to AC and requires no hands. it's a 1st level spell and lasts longer than any one combat (and often through two of them).
It is a Personal spell and does require an action, but it's important to note nonetheless.
Two Feats gives you (potentially) +7 AC for 26k or so in gold with these Feats.
For many classes, like Magus or Alchemist, with no investment at all you can have Shield for +4 AC at no GP cost either. Now, if you aren't a Class with Shield, getting it requires a bit of investment...specifically some UMD and maybe a Trait. So, with equivalent investment to this (plus some skill points) a Fighter could have Extra Traits (Defender of the Society, Dangerously Curious), Dodge, 8 Wands of Shield, and 20k left over for other stuff.
That's only +6 AC, and takes an action for +4 of it, but it saves 20k.
Given that...I'm not inclined to be super worried about this breaking anything.
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I agree that this feat should be banned.
It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.
Yeah but Power Attack is a must-have feat as well, for almost all martial builds. Should that he banned too? Also I don't understand the criticism that this feat invalidates sword and board builds. The core book did that by making that combat style suck so bad. This feat makes that style possible to play without sucking.
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Yeah but Power Attack is a must-have feat as well, for almost all martial builds. Should that he banned too? Also I don't understand the criticism that this feat invalidates sword and board builds. The core book did that by making that combat style suck so bad. This feat makes that style possible to play without sucking.I agree that this feat should be banned.
It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.
It's not comparable to Power Attack. Power Attack is core and therefore is a base assumption of the rules system. Besides - it's mediocre for TWF & 3/4 BAB classes.
Sword & Board is (or at least WAS before the feat in question) a very solid combat style if you go TWF/Shield Bash. And still not bad for secondary combatants such as clerics & druids without TWF/Shield Bash since the offense negative is muted in them since they aren't attacking every round.
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I agree that this feat should be banned.
It's no-brainer feat for every THW or TW builds. We need more OP must have feats? I don't think so.
I was going to say the barbazu beard, but I held off for pure cheese. It was moving from cheddar to mozarella.
==Aelryinth
People seem to be forgetting an important balance point in this discussion: The spell Shield.
Shield grants a +4 bonus to AC and requires no hands. it's a 1st level spell and lasts longer than any one combat (and often through two of them).
It is a Personal spell and does require an action, but it's important to note nonetheless.
Two Feats gives you (potentially) +7 AC for 26k or so in gold with these Feats.
For many classes, like Magus or Alchemist, with no investment at all you can have Shield for +4 AC at no GP cost either. Now, if you aren't a Class with Shield, getting it requires a bit of investment...specifically some UMD and maybe a Trait. So, with equivalent investment to this (plus some skill points) a Fighter could have Extra Traits (Defender of the Society, Dangerously Curious), Dodge, 8 Wands of Shield, and 20k left over for other stuff.
That's only +6 AC, and takes an action for +4 of it, but it saves 20k.
Given that...I'm not inclined to be super worried about this breaking anything.
Nobody forgot about it. It's irrelevant to the discussion.
1) it's not permanent AC. You actually have to cast it.
2) the casting takes an action.
3) it has a short duration.
4) if you aren't a class that gets it naturally, you have to dip it.
5) There aren't any core magic items usable by everyone that let you use Shield.
6) If you can cast shield, you have to weigh the cost of casting it vs casting some other spell. With unhindered shield, you don't need to choose.
7) The spell can be dispelled.
8) In an A-M field, the shield is worth +2 and the spell is worth 0.
9) Classes that can use Shield are generally the least likely to want to use Unhindered Shield. It's the classes that want the AC of a shield but can't get it that want it.
As a note, Armed Bravery only allows Bravery bonus to apply to all Will saves. That's a max of +5, and still not the equal of a Good Will save. It's not fighter level/2, unless the Armor Handbook redefined and buffed it again.
Also Defensive Weapon training AWT maxes out at +4, and you need a +4 sword enhancement for that, too. And to be a fighter with WT, of course.
And while there's a lot of way to boost saves with buffs, the magic items that do so are fairly limited. You can pick up a luckstone and cloak of protection, but getting broad bonuses to all saves from gear is NOT easy. Especially when you want those saves to be at least +20 by level 20.
==Aelryinth