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So here's a funny idea: An antipaladin archetype that required the character to be lawful good. A "good guy" who uses darkness, trickery, and otherwise underhanded tactics to further the cause of justice... kind of sounds familiar, doesn't it? (Batman, Spawn, Hellboy, etc)
Notice how the archetype keeps all the evil-sounding powers, just forces you to figure out how to use them while acting lawful good. Let me know what you guys think.
Even the lowest of the fallen paladins can seek redemption, but their path is a long and difficult one. Though they retain most of their unholy abilities, they must be careful to only use them in the pursuit of good, an arduous and delicate task at best.
Alignment: A penitent must be of lawful good alignment.
A penitent has the following class features.
Code of Conduct
This functions exactly like the paladin code of conduct, except that none of the penitent’s class features break the code so long as they are used for good or self-defense. For example, a penitent would not break his code of conduct for using the poison cruelty against an evil necromancer attacking him, his allies, or innocents.
Moral Compass (Sp)
At 1st level, the penitent is given only the barest of assistance from a forgiving deity on how to go about redeeming himself. Once per day, as an immediate action, he may determine with 90% accuracy if an action he is about to take will result in him ceasing to be lawful good, is evil, or violates the code of conduct.
This ability replaces detect good.
Forgiveness (Ex)
At 1st level, the penitent’s road to redemption requires forgiving those who have wronged him. As an immediate action, he may negate any attack he makes that would result in a creature’s incapacitation or death. Instead, he makes a Diplomacy skill check to influence the creature’s attitude. If successful, the creature is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the penitent’s level, plus his Charisma modifier. Any attempts to modify its attitude made by the penitent during the next day receive a +5 bonus. Harming or, through inaction, allowing forgiven creatures to be harmed at any future time, constitutes an evil act, unless the creature attacks the penitent antipaladin or his allies first.
At 11th level, whenever the penitent successfully uses this ability, he may also attempt an Intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet. He receives a +5 bonus on Diplomacy checks made using this ability against demoralized foes at any point during the next 24 hours.
This ability replaces smite good and aura of vengeance.
Redemption (Su)
At 20th level, the penitent must immediately exchange all of his antipaladin class levels for paladin class levels. If, at any future time, he ceases to be lawful good, willfully commits an evil act, or violates the code of conduct, he is instantly, irrevocably destroyed. Any attempt to resurrect him, by any means, causes a painful backlash to course through the creature attempting it, inflicting 20d6 damage.
This ability replaces unholy champion.
Ex-Penitents
A penitent who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all antipaladin spells and class features (including fiendish boon, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). He may not progress any further in levels as an antipaladin or paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations (see the atonement spell), as appropriate.
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ya know at first i was hesitant cause i though "you mean paladin" after reading however i really like the idea. but yea i don't think redemption is really works as a capstone
I like the concept. For an archetype to be reasonable, though, you have to pay attention to the power of the abilities you replace. Smite Evil/Good is the primary combat ability of (Anti)Paladins. You replaced a major combat feature with a primarily noncombat feature, which makes the archetype a bit lackluster.
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
I see now that it might have been helpful to include some of my design goals when writing this archetype. The primary goal here is to make the class playable in campaigns that wouldn't ordinarily allow antipaladins.
For reference, this is going into a book that's loosely titled "patch archetypes." I'm going through each class and, with the help of the Paizo community, identifying the single biggest problem with each one, then writing an archetype that addresses that specific issue.
Obviously, the biggest problem with the antipaladin is that you just can't play it most of the time, either because you want to make a character that gets along with other characters, or you're in a game that prohibits evil alignments (like PFS). So, I thought, why not make an antipaladin archetype that doesn't force you to be Chaotic Evil?
Now, onto specific feedback:
add to the code of conduct that using [evil] spells or Touch of Corruption doesn't count as an evil act
Boom. Done. Great catch!
Moral Compass feels weak.
Yes, it's intended to be a bad trade of abilities. The path of forgiveness is difficult! I don't want someone to play this archetype because it's more powerful than a regular antipaladin or paladin.
Smite Good is a fairly powerful ability, and Forgiveness is pretty tame in comparison.
Again, yes, trading Smite Good for an ability to basically spare lives and make friends is quite weak, from a combat perspective. But that's what fits the class design. It wouldn't make much sense to sit down and write an archetype for antipaladins to seek redemption, then stack them up with murderous combat powers. :)
Redemption is a strange capstone.
Yeah, you're probably right on this one. I'll give it a bit of a boost. On one hand, I'm not really worried about what happens at level 20 because, let's be honest, it's so rare to play at that tier. Most of my games are E6, PFS stops at 11, and few home games last long enough to even reach level 20, let alone continue on very much after that. But you're right: It needs more than just conversion to paladinhood.
However, it's going to make me look like a total a-hole when I include "My Self" in the special thanks section of the book.
You replaced a major combat feature with a primarily noncombat feature, which makes the archetype a bit lackluster.
The antipaladin is a full BAB martial class with great HP, saves, weapons, and armor. Losing a combat ability isn't going to affect them that much (not as much as a rogue losing sneak attack or a monk losing flurry of blows). And picking up a non-combat ability is actually quite helpful for classes with a weak skill array and few points to spend on them. When you say the archetype is "lackluster" I think what you really mean is "weaker in combat compared to the base class" which, as stated above, is part of the core design.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
Even the lowest of the fallen paladins can seek redemption, but their path is a long and difficult one. Though they retain most of their unholy abilities, they must be careful to only use them in the pursuit of good, an arduous and delicate task at best.
Hmm. The unholy powers come from some entity / entities who would like to see them used for evil purposes. It might even cost them something. But the receiver is not just LG, she even falls when she does something evil willingly. So the entity / entities would need a really cunning plan how this mortal works for the 'greater evil'.
I find the whole concept interesting, just want to make sure the logic is sound.
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Even the lowest of the fallen paladins can seek redemption, but their path is a long and difficult one. Though they retain most of their unholy abilities, they must be careful to only use them in the pursuit of good, an arduous and delicate task at best.Hmm. The unholy powers come from some entity / entities who would like to see them used for evil purposes. It might even cost them something. But the receiver is not just LG, she even falls when she does something evil willingly. So the entity / entities would need a really cunning plan how this mortal works for the 'greater evil'.
I find the whole concept interesting, just want to make sure the logic is sound.
I see where you're going with this, yeah. Maybe it would be better to think of divine (or profane) powers as something that's granted once, then monitored, not constantly provided. So it's like a purchase, not a subscription.
So your penitent antipaladin takes these god-granted evil powers and twists them around, using them for good (and his own redemption). This way, instead of wondering why your patron deity doesn't just cut off the power, it becomes more like: "Oh man, Asmodeus is going to be furious when he sees what I did with this unholy might he granted me!"
Thanks for the feedback!
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Forgiveness is still really weak. You're giving an ability that lets you downgrade the best status effect (death) into a far inferior one (shaken).
Hmm, I don't think I explained the core concept of the class well enough. It's not supposed to be as powerful as a regular antipaladin. The point here isn't to make an awesome upgrade to the class, or even to "side-grade" it with optional features. The design goal was to make it playable at all in games that otherwise restrict evil alignments.
Honestly, antipaladins (and paladins) are among the game's most powerful classes already, so nerfing them a bit is a net win for the overall Pathfinder system.
Thanks for the feedback, though!