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Does anyone else agree that there should be more bard archetypes that ditch performance, like the archaeologist? I've always found the flavor of bardic performance to be insufferable. Weather It's singing, playing a flute or dancing in battle.
I Feel like the chasis of the class is fun and almost infinitely versatile but having no cool archetypes besides archaeologist hurts.
Comedy, Oratory and Acting can literally be flavored to cover just about anything outside of "singing, instrument playing or dancing".
However, I agree that a few more archetypes that ditch performance might be interesting. I would also expect those archetypes to, like the Archaeologist, be worse off at helping the party and focus on self centered abilities.
Well, these days you've got Skald, Mesmerist, the Dandy Ranger, and the Psychic Investigator for classes that do similar things without performance.
busker is another one that replaces performance.
And where are the archetypes that replace spellcasting for wizards?
And where are the archetypes that replace spellcasting for wizards?
I think this is the crux of it.
Bardic performance is really the main draw for a bard. There are other 6/9 casters, 3/4BAB characters etc etc etc, but bardic performance is really the main schtick for the bard. The fact that you do have multiple archetypes that replace what is really the main feature of the class is kind of amazing really.
What do you want to achieve with your non-performing-bard? Maybe they don't have more archetypes because another class covers it already. Give us your wish-list and we'll see if we can come up with something that does it better.
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And where are the archetypes that replace spellcasting for wizards?I think this is the crux of it.
Bardic performance is really the main draw for a bard. There are other 6/9 casters, 3/4BAB characters etc etc etc, but bardic performance is really the main schtick for the bard. The fact that you do have multiple archetypes that replace what is really the main feature of the class is kind of amazing really.
What do you want to achieve with your non-performing-bard? Maybe they don't have more archetypes because another class covers it already. Give us your wish-list and we'll see if we can come up with something that does it better.
In my case - as someone who loves archeologist and a lot of what is with the bard but hate bardic performance; I like the spell mix, bardic knowledge and good social skills, but I don't tend to like support characters. Some support is good, but not when it is a main schtick. The concept of "performing" whether it is speechifying, acting or music in combat just strike a wrong chord for me thematically(sorry).
So basically someone with a spell for most occasions, very knowledgeable, very social with personal combat abilities rather than support.
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So... to get this right... you want a Bard... that's not, well... a BARD... That's like saying "I love the flavor of this tomato soup, but could we somehow take these gross tomatoes out?"
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So... to get this right... you want a Bard... that's not, well... a BARD... That's like saying "I love the flavor of this tomato soup, but could we somehow take these gross tomatoes out?"
More like I like stew, but want to replace the beef with some other meat for a different flavor, but keep all the veggies the same. It's not beef stew anymore, but I prefer that.
I like everything about the bard except the music. I like the other class abilities, how they fit together, what kind of themes you can do with them. I just want to decouple all that from music and bardic performance.
I love the archeologist for just that reason, and like the OP, I would love to see other archetypes that keep all that other stuff, but remove the whole performance aspect to it.
I play a lot of HERO system, and in that game the player comes up with the fluff for their abilities - you buy 6d6 of damage, and you define it as fire, a really strong punch, or electrical blast; so the idea of ripping the fluff and a mechanic out of class but keep all the stuff I like isn't that foreign to me.
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I really like bardic performance because the flavor is so open ended.
I also really like the Archaeologist and Dervish of Dawn.
And I like Thundercaller and Sound Striker because they replace bardic performance with cool spell-like abilities.
So yes, there should be more bard archetypes without bardic performance, or that you give you cool abilities.
I'd personally like one that wild-shaped the bard by sacrificing one performance round per round in wild-shape. Or maybe something cool like causing enemy misses/hits against you to deal damage equal to 1/2 your bard level to other nearby enemies (maybe as a witch-themed archetype?).
Bard deserves more cool stuff.
So... to get this right... you want a Bard... that's not, well... a BARD... That's like saying "I love the flavor of this tomato soup, but could we somehow take these gross tomatoes out?"More like I like stew, but want to replace the beef with some other meat for a different flavor, but keep all the veggies the same. It's not beef stew anymore, but I prefer that.
I like everything about the bard except the music. I like the other class abilities, how they fit together, what kind of themes you can do with them. I just want to decouple all that from music and bardic performance.
I love the archeologist for just that reason, and like the OP, I would love to see other archetypes that keep all that other stuff, but remove the whole performance aspect to it.
I play a lot of HERO system, and in that game the player comes up with the fluff for their abilities - you buy 6d6 of damage, and you define it as fire, a really strong punch, or electrical blast; so the idea of ripping the fluff and a mechanic out of class but keep all the stuff I like isn't that foreign to me.
You're not restricted to music in any way with the class. You can recite poems, give epic speeches or even dance.
I agree that taking the perform out of Bard is just silly. It's like being a Barbarian without Rage. A Druid without Wild Shape. A Fighter that is useful out of combat...
In my case - as someone who loves archeologist and a lot of what is with the bard but hate bardic performance; I like the spell mix, bardic knowledge and good social skills, but I don't tend to like support characters. Some support is good, but not when it is a main schtick. The concept of "performing" whether it is speechifying, acting or music in combat just strike a wrong chord for me thematically(sorry).
So basically someone with a spell for most occasions, very knowledgeable, very social with personal combat abilities rather than support.
In this case, it sounds like you've answered your own question ... Archaeologist is the bard for you.
(It might be the bard for me too, I've never really looked much at the bard archetypes, and that one sounds pretty great to me)
As for the not liking the theme of performance, you can re-imagine it as something more akin to a Warrior of the Holy Light or something similar if it helps you. Standard action to activate but free to maintain means you can imagine it pretty much however you want to.
If you want to try something different, there's the Dervish of Dawn and Diva archetypes. They lose bardic knowledge, but it's not too far off.
There's also the Magus. Fairly different spell list and no bardic knowledge, but being an Int-based class you should have a fair few skills, and it's whole schtick is being a self-sufficient combat-mage.
These may not be exactly what you're looking for, but they're options for similar character concepts.
I'm interested to see what other people say here (including you Lord Mhoram) because honestly I don't have that much experience with the bard. Would any of my suggestions work (even if imperfectly)? Anyone have any better ideas?
Or is this something that actually is lacking in the class-department? Is it impossible to create your character-concept without home-brewing your own archetype?
I've had an Evangelist that explained his Oratory-based performance as a fairly quiet mystical battle-chant, and a Bard could easily to the same. It's typically a supernatural or spell-like effect, so it's really about the 'magic' of what they're doing, not the mundane side.
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On a mechanical level, Bardic Performance is big. Replacing it requires to to give a Class a large number of things to compensate, especially since you thematically pretty much need to replace Versatile Performance as well. Archaeologist gets Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talents, Luck, better-than-Trapfinding, and is still probably worse off than non-Archetyped Bard.
Archetypes that replace that much are rare. Which is one big reason why why it's rare.
On a thematic level, there are very few concepts that make sense as a 'Bard Archetype' rather than something else and lack Performance. And the reason fir this is partly that Performance is way broader than you're allowing it to be.
Both Spider Man and Captain America, while probably not Bards, can make excellent inspirations for Bardic Performance, with Spider Man routinely demonstrating Perform (Comedy) in battle and Captain America doing the same for Perform (Oratory). Neither are either singing or dancing.
You know what I'd really love to see? Unchained Bard getting the "XXX Talent" treatment Like Monk got. Just a long list of performance options that you get every few levels that better reflect a different series of performance types... Also so I'm not stuck with the the ones I hate like Distraction... Countersong... Fascinate... Deadly Performance...
what you're describing sounds like a magus to me. or an inquisitor.
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You know what I'd really love to see? Unchained Bard getting the "XXX Talent" treatment Like Monk got. Just a long list of performance options that you get every few levels that better reflect a different series of performance types.
You can do that with the existing Bard by allowing bardic performances to use the bardic masterpieces rules.
For example, the Dirge of Doom bardic performance is listed as being available at 8th level and relies on audible & visual components... so the equivalent Dirge of Doom bardic masterpiece would require Perform (any audible) 8 ranks & Perform (any visual) 8 ranks. It could be acquired for a feat or 3rd level (highest castable by 8th level bard) spell known slot. All other effects and rules are identical.
So then you go through all the performances on the various bard (and/or skald) archetypes and put together your long list of corresponding bardic masterpieces... which the character can then pick and choose up to the limit of their available feats and spells known.
Alternatively, to get a Bard with NO bardic performance you could reverse the process to back out the basic performances in exchange for extra spells known and/or feats.
You're not restricted to music in any way with the class. You can recite poems, give epic speeches or even dance.I agree that taking the perform out of Bard is just silly. It's like being a Barbarian without Rage. A Druid without Wild Shape. A Fighter that is useful out of combat...
It's performance as a whole for me. And to be honest - I'd love to play a druid that has it's spells list, nature abilities, and animal companion, but not wild shape - shapeshfiting is not integral to my idea of a "nature priest" - 9 level casting, companion and nature skills are.
:) on the fighter.
You know what I'd really love to see? Unchained Bard getting the "XXX Talent" treatment Like Monk got. Just a long list of performance options that you get every few levels that better reflect a different series of performance types... Also so I'm not stuck with the the ones I hate like Distraction... Countersong... Fascinate... Deadly Performance...
As I never play organized play, I use 3PP. Rogue Genius Games has a line of "Talented" class books, where all class abilities are taken as Talents (or Edges for specific class abilities that have more "oomph").
Dunno when it is happening, but I am waiting for the talented bard.
Does anyone else agree that there should be more bard archetypes that ditch performance, like the archaeologist? I've always found the flavor of bardic performance to be insufferable. Weather It's singing, playing a flute or dancing in battle.
I Feel like the chasis of the class is fun and almost infinitely versatile but having no cool archetypes besides archaeologist hurts.
I have an archivist whose performance is all oratory, which seems to match the flavour for the character pefectly.
You know what I'd really love to see? Unchained Bard getting the "XXX Talent" treatment Like Monk got. Just a long list of performance options that you get every few levels that better reflect a different series of performance types... Also so I'm not stuck with the the ones I hate like Distraction... Countersong... Fascinate... Deadly Performance...As I never play organized play, I use 3PP. Rogue Genius Games has a line of "Talented" class books, where all class abilities are taken as Talents (or Edges for specific class abilities that have more "oomph").
Dunno when it is happening, but I am waiting for the talented bard.
All well and good, but I think you're missing one thing: This is not a 3pp forum. There is a place for that, but this one is a Paizo.
I hope you find what you are looking for. I for one simply want true Spell Kenning (for the Bard)...there is a nice stop-gap measure for that with the Arrowsong's Lament Masterpiece, but not quite there.
Just to put it out there, the word Bard literally translates to performer.
In medieval Gaelic and British culture, a bard was a professional story teller, verse-maker and music composer, employed by a patron (such as a monarch or noble), to commemorate one or more of the patron's ancestors and to praise the patron's own activities.
continue...
You're not restricted to music in any way with the class. You can recite poems, give epic speeches or even dance.I agree that taking the perform out of Bard is just silly. It's like being a Barbarian without Rage. A Druid without Wild Shape. A Fighter that is useful out of combat...
It's performance as a whole for me. And to be honest - I'd love to play a druid that has it's spells list, nature abilities, and animal companion, but not wild shape - shapeshfiting is not integral to my idea of a "nature priest" - 9 level casting, companion and nature skills are.
:) on the fighter.
There's actually a Druid Archetype that might fit what you're looking for: The Nature Fang.
I would look at the Masked Performer from Ultimate Intrigue. The idea, to me at least, is a super actor who becomes his chosen role. They can still buff the party, but they also get the ability to develop the abilities that they pretend to have. The features that they give up mean that there is no incentive to put points in any performance but acting. To me, this archetype strikes a good balance between the Archeologist and the stereotypical singing and dancing Bard.
All well and good, but I think you're missing one thing: This is not a 3pp forum. There is a place for that, but this one is a Paizo.
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Right, but if someone is looking for a solution, and they aren't concerned with the difference a point in that direction would be helpful.
It was mostly an aside. Just because this isn't the third party part of the forum, doesn't mean mentioning 3PP is banned, just not the primary source of discussion. Gestalting comes up not infrequently on this particular subfora and it isn't Paizo either.
So... to get this right... you want a Bard... that's not, well... a BARD... That's like saying "I love the flavor of this tomato soup, but could we somehow take these gross tomatoes out?"More like I like stew, but want to replace the beef with some other meat for a different flavor, but keep all the veggies the same. It's not beef stew anymore, but I prefer that.
I like everything about the bard except the music. I like the other class abilities, how they fit together, what kind of themes you can do with them. I just want to decouple all that from music and bardic performance.
How close does the Investigator get to what you are looking for?
It has a comparable spell list, acceptable combat prowess, a similar ability to make knowledge checks (with fewer bonuses, but still good), a the flexibility in its Investigator Talents to build multiple themes.
So... to get this right... you want a Bard... that's not, well... a BARD... That's like saying "I love the flavor of this tomato soup, but could we somehow take these gross tomatoes out?"More like I like stew, but want to replace the beef with some other meat for a different flavor, but keep all the veggies the same. It's not beef stew anymore, but I prefer that.
I like everything about the bard except the music. I like the other class abilities, how they fit together, what kind of themes you can do with them. I just want to decouple all that from music and bardic performance.
How close does the Investigator get to what you are looking for?
It has a comparable spell list, acceptable combat prowess, a similar ability to make knowledge checks (with fewer bonuses, but still good), a the flexibility in its Investigator Talents to build multiple themes.
It has some. I'm not actively looking for a specific class/archtype. I was just weighing in on the "Bard should have archtypes that replace bardic performance and related features" as part of a general discussion.
I've played an investigator he was fun. Different flavor. Finding a class with a flavor that fits whatever specific character I envision is not a problem for me. :)
HAd a bard whose 'performance' was something akin to a Maori Haka chant combined with banging on his shield at times during combat.
Personally this and the "shouting orders on the battlefield like Captain America" are my two favorite flavors for it.
edit- part of the reason I don't use that is that I play 1 on 1 with the wife, so a support-type character to help the party is pretty much useless as there is no party. :) One of the reasons I want to see more replacements like the archeologist.