0-16 To Scale the Dragon- Updated Creature Stats? (Spoilers)

[Fomsie]

Heya folks, getting prepped to run this and I am noticing that several of the creatures used have different stats in Pathfinder than they did back in 3.5 when this was written.

Spoiler:

The Taers were originally created with d8 hit dice, but now monstrous humans have d10s. This only results in a 3 HP difference, so not a big deal...

However, the Remorhaz has significantly more HP now than when the scenario was made, 73 listed back in 3.5 MM but 94 now.

Skills are obviously also changed, but those are easy to transfer and update.

So, do I use the published updated statblocks from ToH and the Bestiary, or the old, now incorrect stats?

Thanks.

[Gary Bush]

Per page 34 of the Season 7 Guide wrote:

Season 0 (Scenarios #1–#28): Season 0 scenarios were written under the 3.5 rules set of the world’s oldest roleplaying game, before the release of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Scenarios are to be run with minimal changes by GMs, limited to adding CMB/CMD scores to NPCs and monsters and using newly combined skills such as Stealth and Perception instead of Move Silently and Spot. If a creature in the scenario also appears in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2, or Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 and maintains the same CR between both rules sets, you may use the Pathfinder RPG stats in place of the 3.5 stats. This is the only substitution allowed in these scenarios.

You should use the stats in the adventure with changes as noted above.

[Ferious Thune]

I believe the second creature Fomsie mentioned meets the CR requirement for the substitution. Man, that can be a brutal fight depending on which version is used and how the GM runs the creature's special attack.

Spoiler:

When I played, the GM ruled that the heat damage applied when it grabbed someone, so it was doing in one attack 3D6+9 physical and 8d6 Fire damage to level 5 characters. Enough to drop someone on an average roll, or as we discovered, kill on a high roll. We lost two PCs in that fight to high damage rolls, including our Life Oracle (after the Remorhaz tried to hit me a couple of times and couldn't). It melted all of my Monk's weapons, so I resorted to punching it and just taking the heat damage. It didn't help that the fighter with an Adamantine weapon wouldn't attack with it, because he was afraid it would get destroyed. Instead I think he was taking potshots with a bow. If I'd understood the Hardness rules better at the time, I'd have tried more to convince him.

EDIT: It may have been even worse than that, as Power Attack isn't factored into the stat block. So that's an extra +6 damage.

[Serisan]

The players should virtually never encounter the remorhaz with the scenario as written.

Quote:

Creatures: Any act that disturbs the ground near the

eggs, such as chipping away at the ice or triggering the
trap, attracts a female remorhaz who crawls out of the
Maw and quickly speeds through the snow to defend her
clutch. The monstrosity arrives a few minutes after PCs
start digging;

When I ran a few months back, the party disarmed the trap (which wouldn't trigger the conditions above), identified the eggs, then rushed the digging process, utilizing adamantine weapons and power attacks on the top section of the ice to get through the ice's HP quickly. I believe they were able to retrieve the objective in roughly 30 seconds. They were back on their sleds before the remorhaz arrived, at which point it could not keep up.

[Muser]

It's the highlight of the scenario though. If I'll ever run this, I'll sleight-of-hand the players to meet the thing: The McGuffin is pretty ramshackle, how are you gonna remove it?" "Have you fed the dogs, by the way?" etc. No way am I going to cheat them out of the crown jewel fight of the trek.

[Ferious Thune]

It is a fairly epic fight in an otherwise potentially underwhelming scenario. The idea behind the scenario is interesting, but...

Spoiler:

There is a lot of opportunity for things to go horribly wrong. I haven't read it in a long time, and I didn't get a chance to run it. I remember when I played it, though, nobody in the party had Handle Animal. The GM did not allow a Charisma check or to use it untrained to guide the sleds. We had one character in the part with Breadth of Experience, so the GM allowed Profession: Dogsledder or something along those lines, so that we didn't just fail the scenario outright after the briefing. We could not fit the entire party on the one sled, so I ended up running alongside it for most of the time. Thanks to monk bonus speed, I could keep up. Running down the mountain carrying a fallen party member was not fun, and the sled fight went sideways pretty quickly. Compared to the Remorhaz, though, it was a cakewalk.

Back to the Remhoraz... Does anything in the scenario give the impression the PCs should be in a hurry once they get to the site? I seem to remember us taking our time, doing what Pathfinders do, taking 20s on Perception, etc. I do believe we set the trap off (before deciding to take a 20). I think the Remhoraz showed up immediately after we recovered what we were there for.

So it's a really swingy scenario, depending on how it's run, how the Remhoraz's abilities are treated (some GMs apply Heat every attack it makes, some only on a grab, and some only after Swallow Whole. Also, some GMs remember to factor in Power Attack, some don't - a more general problem in the way the stat blocks are presented). Sometimes the GM never has the Remhoraz show up, sometimes it's there right away. Sometimes there's a surprise round, sometimes there isn't. And see the spoiler for the table variation around what skills are needed to even have a chance at completing the scenario.

The final fight, even down two party members, wasn't much of a challenge, but I think by then we just all wanted it over with.

EDIT: Also expect table variation on what weapons are effective at chipping away the ice, adamantine or no. There are several lengthy rules threads on things like Adamantine Daggers. It's just a scenario full of table variation, more than most I can remember.

[thistledown]

The dogsleds are a fun idea, but poorly implemented. My druid rutinely wild-shapes into huge forms, and the party just rode her up and down the mountain faster than dogs could run. The boss was still difficult I could have solo'd it as an air elemental dropping spears on it, but the party would have been SOL, so I just bit the thing a lot. Talk about spicy food!

When I GM'd it, two players had Boots of the Cat, so rather than sled back down the cliff, they just jumped off the steep side and took the 20 damage. Because the falling rules are dumb. This made the aspis race rather difficult for the two characters still having to sled down the hill and fight on their own.

After the aspis fight I let the jumpers catch up before running the last fight.

[Ferious Thune]

I also took a slight issue with the Remboraz ignoring me after it missed me twice. I was the only one doing any significant damage to it (at the cost of a couple of Temple Swords). I was standing between it and the party, and it chose to move past me to get to the squishy looking Oracle in the back of the party. It's an Int 5 creature, so maybe it's smart enough to figure that tactic out, but it was a particularly vicious move on the part of the GM, and struck me as him being a little frustrated the big bad monster wasn't hitting. The result, again, was two deaths in the party and negative gold for everyone in the scenario after chipping in for the Raise Deads and Restorations. I gave extra beyond my share to the oracle, because I was upset at myself for not having a way to stop it from getting to him (Can't very well trip a Remhoraz when it provokes moving by you, and hitting it wasn't enough).

So anyway, it's meant to be an epic fight, but a GM can turn it into something much harder and deadlier if they take the harshest interpretation of the abilities and use optimal tactics.

[Woran]

The perception check for spotting a burrowing creature is 25. That's a rules given. Depending on the tier/luck it should be doable, giving some players the chance to act in the surprise round.

[kinevon]

Muser wrote:

It's the highlight of the scenario though. If I'll ever run this, I'll sleight-of-hand the players to meet the thing: The McGuffin is pretty ramshackle, how are you gonna remove it?" "Have you fed the dogs, by the way?" etc. No way am I going to cheat them out of the crown jewel fight of the trek.

Please, please, do NOT force this fight. Seriously.

I played it with my Level 5 Bard. 33 hit points, already down serious stuff from a recent (previous scenario?) death. One hit, with the grab and heat damage, and my PC went from uninjured to dead dead. And that is supposed to be fun?

My Bard only came back because the rest of the party donated. And, again, IIRC, we had two deaths in the party, and it cost us all quite a bit to recover from that.

Remember that APL+3 or more encounters are Challenging or Epic, and actually, per the CR rules, EXPECTED to kill PCs. Don't force it, unless you like killing PCs for little profit.

Especially since, per the scenario rules, the party is likely to be starting that encounter with negative statuses right out of the box.

Mountain Travel:

High altitude travel can be extremely fatiguing—and sometimes deadly—to creatures that aren't used to it. Cold becomes extreme, and the lack of oxygen in the air can wear down even the most hardy of warriors.

Acclimated Characters: Creatures accustomed to high altitude generally fare better than lowlanders. Any creature with an Environment entry that includes mountains is considered native to the area and acclimated to the high altitude. Characters can also acclimate themselves by living at high altitude for a month. Characters who spend more than two months away from the mountains must reacclimate themselves when they return. Undead, constructs, and other creatures that do not breathe are immune to altitude effects.

Altitude Zones: In general, mountains present three possible altitude bands: low pass, low peak/high pass, and high peak.

Low Pass (lower than 5,000 feet): Most travel in low mountains takes place in low passes, a zone consisting largely of alpine meadows and forests. Travelers might find the going difficult (which is reflected in the movement modifiers for traveling through mountains), but the altitude itself has no game effect.

Low Peak or High Pass (5,000 to 15,000 feet): Ascending to the highest slopes of low mountains, or most normal travel through high mountains, falls into this category. All non-acclimated creatures labor to breathe in the thin air at this altitude. Characters must succeed on a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or be fatigued. The fatigue ends when the character descends to an altitude with more air. Acclimated characters do not have to attempt the Fortitude save.

High Peak (more than 15,000 feet): The highest mountains exceed 15,000 feet in height. At these elevations, creatures are subject to both high altitude fatigue (as described above) and altitude sickness, whether or not they're acclimated to high altitudes. Altitude sickness represents long-term oxygen deprivation, and affects mental and physical ability scores. After each 6-hour period a character spends at an altitude of over 15,000 feet, he must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Creatures acclimated to high altitude receive a +4 competence bonus on their saving throws to resist high altitude effects and altitude sickness, but eventually even seasoned mountaineers must abandon these dangerous elevations.

Scenario notes:

About a mile above sea level, individuals non-acclimated to high altitudes must succeed on a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15 +1 per previous check) to avoid becoming fatigued (for details, see DMG 90; altitude zones).

Distance to travel: nominally 20 miles. 1 sled, per CRB, is 300 lbs, + 2 assengers, another 300 lbs on average, so 600 lbs, 6 riding dogs pulling, so Str 15 each, speed 40 ft, so medium quadruped = 66 lbs. or less 67–133 lbs. 134–200 lbs, all times 1.5, so:
99 lb or less, light load, 100-150 lbs is medium load, 151-300 is heavy load. Medium load reduces 40 ft to 30 ft... So, being generous, and saying 6 dogs would not be encumbered at all by the sled, and that the sled does not slow their overland movement rate down at all, they move at 4 miles per hour walking, or 8 miles an hour hustling. So, 2.5 to 5 hours, not counting areas during the trip which explicitly have issues with moving faster than half speed, or cause other bottle necks. Say 5 increasingly difficult Fort saves, culminating in a DC 20 Fort save. Of course, only one failed save is needed to cause Fatigue. And I am ignoring temperature issues, as Endure Elements is a thing easy to get at this level...

Fatigued:

A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

[Ferious Thune]

Tineke Bolleman wrote:

The perception check for spotting a burrowing creature is 25. That's a rules given. Depending on the tier/luck it should be doable, giving some players the chance to act in the surprise round.

Yes, this is how I've run other burrowing creatures in the past (Purple Worm in a 7-11, I think maybe some giant scorpions or a bullet or something in a 5-9). It definitely helps the PCs, and it's correct by the rules.