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You're aware that the errata actually made the Scarred Witch Doctor better, right? It's the only class that now has the potential to have an effective primary stat in excess of 20 at level 1.
Better is subjective. If you're one of those players who insists on having a 20 in your starting stat, then yes it might be better.
If you're like me and appreciated having a truly different option from all the other full casters and feel like the change was completely unnecessary, then it's not.
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I don't think the word "better" is what he meant.
Perhaps "more effective" or "more optimized" would fit better.
I, for one, never got the chance to play a Scarred Witch Doctor, but the class mechanics themselves sounded fun and unusual. And then they made the half-orc SWD the king of tha particular archetype.
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I hate this thread. Bats and PAIN is my favorite spell. I utterly repudiate any efforts to reduce its effectiveness.
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To expand on the point about Scarred Witch Doctor: The Scarred Witch Doctor errata killed some interesting gish builds, but made Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors who are conventional Witches in every other way insanely powerful. Whoever did this errata forgot that Half-Orcs can put their +2 on any ability score (or maybe they were thinking that Half-Orcs cannot take Orc archetypes).
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UnArcane has it right. If you're an int pumping half orc looking to steal an archetype from one of your parent races the new scarred witch doctor is amazing.
If you're an orc who liked being a tanky front line witch doctor you're... not as well off. You basically just negate your int penalty except for skills, skill checks, languages and etc.
Kind of agree on the arcanist. Arcanists are powerful, but so are every other 9th level caster and I don't see any of them getting nerfed.
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Trading more spells for more health? Not better, sorry. But hey, let's kill off the thematic options so the new classes that do similar things get played, huh? ;)
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Trading more spells for more health? Not better, sorry. But hey, let's kill off the thematic options so the new classes that do similar things get played, huh? ;)
Always a good sign when your company is borrowing business practices from Electronic Arts. I wonder how long we have before PFS requires everyone own the latest printing of all their books in order to play?
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Kineticist doesn't do similar things, and even if they did, they would still have gotten play, SWD changes or no. They were probably the most anticipated class in years. The playtest thread had thousands of posts, more than any two other playtest threads combined iirc. Kineticist was a big damn deal, and had nothing to do with the SWD errata.
Didn't stop Paizo from pulling their classic "nerf the stuff in the book you already bought to make the stuff in book they want you to buy look better".
Isn't it great when the company decides to nerf your old options just so you have an extra incentive to buy their new book? Completely fair to us, the customers who support the game and the company who publishes it, isn't it?
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Didn't stop Paizo from pulling their classic "nerf the stuff in the book you already bought to make the stuff in book they want you to buy look better".Isn't it great when the company decides to nerf your old options just so you have an extra incentive to buy their new book? Completely fair to us, the customers to support the game, isn't it?
If that was Paizo's goal then why is new stuff always so terrible?
Like, I dunno, if my goal was to nerf things in old books to help promote new books, the kineticist being utterly awful would seem kind of counterintuitive to that.
Didn't stop Paizo from pulling their classic "nerf the stuff in the book you already bought to make the stuff in book they want you to buy look better".Isn't it great when the company decides to nerf your old options just so you have an extra incentive to buy their new book? Completely fair to us, the customers to support the game, isn't it?
If that was Paizo's goal then why is new stuff always so terrible?
Like, I dunno, if my goal was to nerf things in old books to help promote new books, the kineticist being utterly awful would seem kind of counterintuitive to that.
I think that's more a matter of competence than non-evil-ness.
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To actually answer your questions, MathNerd, yes, many classes were weakened by errata. Some out of necessity ("OMGZ! CHA to saves feat which name I don't recall right now! TOO OPZ!!!"), some to reestablish a lost niche (NuRogue and Swashbuckler dex to damage is an example that needed to 'be saved' as was the Kineticist vs. Scarred Witchdoctor), some were honest mistakes that needed correction (I'm not sure but I think the Arcanist is one such example, actually. It was always supposed to have that little extra bit of sorceror in there! otherwise, guess what... It was just as SAD as the wizard and almost comparable to the scarred witchdoctor, which you DO feel was a justified change...).
Sometimes that errata does go too far, like that feat, which went from op to nigh worthless. Most of the time though its really fair. Like the Arcanist (coincidentally my favorite class, btw!).I believe the Arcanist is still great, still top tier even, soooo.... Yeah, I personally think you're exaggerating the issue. Sorry...
You can still teleport very often, if you want, just not without a little more investment. Personally, I think 14 base Charisma is enough to fuel Consume Spells and or Items + basic points + Dimensional Slide + School Understanding (Conjuration - Teleportation subschool) + you know, spells... And frankly... Why the hell do you need to 'jump' THAT much anyway!?
Apparently you love jumping around the battlefield so... There's a Magus Archetype thats very suitable (sorry, my memory isn't great and... Well, I'm too lazy to bust out the googlefu...).
I'll give you though that errata does sometimes annoy me, if only because of all the stickynotes in my books. Not so much for what they mean for my characters. I like to think a reasonable DM either plays out the campaign with pre-errata rules to preserve the character or makes an allowance to rebuild your character to accomodate the changes.
I really should get more PDF's instead of books though, that really would save me a lot of sticky notes. And shelfspace!
I'm not too familiar with NuMonk so I'll just not elaborate on that.
I'm not aware of a prd backlog or somesuch but... Well... If you have pre-errata books you shouldn't need that, now should you?
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("OMGZ! CHA to saves feat which name I don't recall right now! TOO OPZ!!!")
Divine Protection... which is now one of the worst feats ever.
some to reestablish a lost niche (NuRogue and Swashbuckler dex to damage is an example that needed to 'be saved' as was the Kineticist vs. Scarred Witchdoctor)
As said above, old SWD and Kineticist have.. basically nothing in common other than the fact that they both use con and have some at-will magical abilities. They play in entire different ways and fill entire different roles in a party.
(I'm not sure but I think the Arcanist is one such example, actually. It was always supposed to have that little extra bit of sorceror in there! otherwise, guess what... It was just as SAD as the wizard and almost comparable to the scarred witchdoctor, which you DO feel was a justified change...).
The issue with the SWD is that it got a lot of things out of Constitution, which was already an important stat because it governed HP and Fort. The potential problem there was that you had a 9th level spellcaster who got pretty damn tanky thanks to their stats. Int focused classes don't really have the same problem because Int doesn't fuel any of your ancillary combat abilities in that way.
I believe the Arcanist is still great, still top tier even, soooo.... Yeah, I personally think you're exaggerating the issue. Sorry...
Of course it's still top tier. It's a ninth level spellcaster. Ninth level spellcasters with basically no class features at all (hello wizard) are top tier. Doesn't necessarily mean the changes were good or necessary, especially when all the classes that are better than the arcanist continue to go years without being touched. Which just feels kind of silly.
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But that's not even remotely what happened. The Scarred Witch Doctor is now a better Witch than it was.
That's subjective... I prefered to have an unique option instead of an overpowered one. And what other reason would they for the SWD nerf? It's not like it was breaking anything.
The Kineticist does not look any better compared to the SWD because they share different design space. One is a buff/debuff controller with 9 levels of arcane spells, the other is a limited semi-casting psychic with primarily damage focused options supplemented by an array of utility powers.
Tell that to Paizo.
Where do people get these ridiculous ideas from? I mean, seriously, the kineticist isn't awful, but it's certainly not competing with the Witch in terms of class tier.
All you need to do is check Paizo's errata history.
- Cavalier is released -> Animal Companions of every other class are nerfed.
- People say SB's Parry is just a weaker version of CW -> CW gets nerfed into oblivion.
- Arcanist is released and has the ability to switch prepared spells for the day -> Paizo suddenly decides to FAQ the Paragon Surge loophole, which went untouched for years.
- UnRogue is released -> The already pointlessly restrictive Dex-to-damage feat is nerfed and becomes even more pointlessly restrictive.
- Kineticist is released and marketed as "the only Con-based class with at will abilities" -> SWD loses its Con-based casting.
And these are just the ones that come to mind at the moment... There are more.
But, hey... It's your right to think it's all a big coincidence and Paizo would never nerf some old option just to make their new product more appealing. It's also my right to think that's naive and that you're giving Paizo more credit than they deserve.
Overall, Paizo is a great company... But even them are not above going "Evil Corporation" on occasion. The "nerf the old to make the new look shinier" and the "no errata until the reprint" policies are very real and very customer-unfriendly.
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I always thought it was the Spell Sage(a baaaaad archetype) that caused the Paragon Surge/Eldritch Heritage nerf.
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That's subjective... I prefered to have an unique option instead of an overpowered one. And what other reason would they for the SWD nerf? It's not like it was breaking anything.
It wasn't the most common thing, but I do remember seeing a fairly regular stream of complaints whenever a T1/Caster-martial thread pop up ridiculing Paizo for making a con based caster, which might be the source of.. some of that.
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That's subjective... I prefered to have an unique option instead of an overpowered one. And what other reason would they for the SWD nerf? It's not like it was breaking anything.It wasn't the most common thing, but I do remember seeing a fairly regular stream of complaints whenever a T1/Caster-martial thread pop up ridiculing Paizo for making a con based caster, which might be the source of.. some of that.
Meh... Witch was never that good. Their spell list is fairly limited for a full caster. Besides... It's very suspicious that the SWD "coincidentally" gets nerfed around the time the Kineticist comes around and people point out that the SWD also uses Con for at-will abilities without needing to punch itself in the face.
If it were a single incident, I'd be willing to believe it... But it's not. There's an obvious pattern here. Of course, they'll never admit it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Well... I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You think I'm being paranoid, I think you're being naive... There's nothing else to be said.
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Thing is, regardless of whether the Scarred Witch Doctor errata had anything to do with the Kineticist, it isn't just a nerf -- it ITSELF will now require a nerf to keep from making Half-Orc Witches insanely overpowered as noted above.
You're aware that Paizo only issues errata when a new edition of a book is printed, right? So what you're claiming here is that they not only designed a nerf to make a non-competing class look better, but that they also engineered it so that the book that the changed class was in would be reprinted at roughly the same time as the non-competing class was released? Do you realize how farfetched that sounds? I mean, holy crap dude. You're reading way too much into how they operate.
Errata? Yes. FAQ? No.
But like I said... There's nothing else to be discussed. We'll just have to accept each other's opinion.
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("OMGZ! CHA to saves feat which name I don't recall right now! TOO OPZ!!!")Divine Protection... which is now one of the worst feats ever.
Thats the one! Thanks :) I did mention its insane downfall into uselesness later in my post.
some to reestablish a lost niche (NuRogue and Swashbuckler dex to damage is an example that needed to 'be saved' as was the Kineticist vs. Scarred Witchdoctor)As said above, old SWD and Kineticist have.. basically nothing in common other than the fact that they both use con and have some at-will magical abilities. They play in entire different ways and fill entire different roles in a party.
I'm not disputing they're entirely different classes with entirely different functions and abilities. I'm merely stating my belief that the change to Scarred Witchdoctor came to be because Paizo wanted to maintain the uniqueness of the Kineticist as the 'Con-class'. Really, fluffwise the change from Con to 'heightened' Int makes little to no sense to me (please prove me wrong!). Obviously, there's still some debate over whether its now more or less powerful, so that cannot really have been the concern either, right? What do you think the reason for the change was?
(I'm not sure but I think the Arcanist is one such example, actually. It was always supposed to have that little extra bit of sorceror in there! otherwise, guess what... It was just as SAD as the wizard and almost comparable to the scarred witchdoctor, which you DO feel was a justified change...).The issue with the SWD is that it got a lot of things out of Constitution, which was already an important stat because it governed HP and Fort. The potential problem there was that you had a 9th level spellcaster who got pretty damn tanky thanks to their stats. Int focused classes don't really have the same problem because Int doesn't fuel any of your ancillary combat abilities in that way.
I'll give you that Con is more useful in combat than int, but a D6 class with 20 Con still isn't all that tanky, if you ask me. I like to think casters don't care about their opponents hp, like most of us do, but I also feel like the reverse is true. Regardless whether my ancillary belief holds any water or not I'm left asking why it is ok for the Kineticist to have the benefit you describe when the witch doesn't. There's a definite difference in utility and power between the two, sure, but do you really believe that difference by itself justified the errata?
Besides, almost all casters are sad, if not can be played as sad, and as such have relatively high con scores as it is. How much Con do people put into their Scarred Witchdoctors now compared to their pre-errata ones? How meaningful is that difference?I believe the Arcanist is still great, still top tier even, soooo.... Yeah, I personally think you're exaggerating the issue. Sorry...Of course it's still top tier. It's a ninth level spellcaster. Ninth level spellcasters with basically no class features at all (hello wizard) are top tier. Doesn't necessarily mean the changes were good or necessary, especially when all the classes that are better than the arcanist continue to go years without being touched. Which just feels kind of silly.
Actually, I agree on all counts here :p Of course, I do want to add the caveat that just because wizards and co somehow evade the nerfbat time and time again (an obfuscated classfeature I'm guessing) that those that do get nerfed shouldn't. Especially if said nerf really isn't that big of a deal :/ Its still silly though!
Edited in a response I missed while typing!
But that's not even remotely what happened. The Scarred Witch Doctor is now a better Witch than it was.That's subjective... I prefered to have an unique option instead of an overpowered one. And what other reason would they for the SWD nerf? It's not like it was breaking anything.
The Kineticist does not look any better compared to the SWD because they share different design space. One is a buff/debuff controller with 9 levels of arcane spells, the other is a limited semi-casting psychic with primarily damage focused options supplemented by an array of utility powers.Tell that to Paizo.
Where do people get these ridiculous ideas from? I mean, seriously, the kineticist isn't awful, but it's certainly not competing with the Witch in terms of class tier.All you need to do is check Paizo's errata history.
- Cavalier is released -> Animal Companions of every other class are nerfed.
- People say SB's Parry is just a weaker version of CW -> CW gets nerfed into oblivion.
- Arcanist is released and has the ability to switch prepared spells for the day -> Paizo finally decides to fix the Paragon Surge loophole, which went untouched for years, even though it's pointed out multiple times.
- UnRogue is released -> The already pointlessly restrictive Dex-to-damage feat is nerfed and becomes even more pointlessly restrictive.
- Kineticist is released and marketed as "the only Con-based class with at will abilities" -> SWD is loses its Con-based casting.And these are the only that come to mind at the moment... There are more.
But, hey... It's your right to think it's all a big coincidence and Paizo would never nerf some old option just to make their new product more appealing. It's also my right to think that's naive and that you're giving Paizo more credit than they deserve.
The problem is that none of these changes actually make the new option look better.
Druids are...
I think you're missing the point here. I don't think (most of) these nerfs are made because of concerns for power on either end. Most of them are, at least in my mind, nicheprotection. Thats it. Paizo is well aware of the differences in power in classes. I find it hard to believe otherwise. Its working for them. What doesn't work for them is invalidating niches. Well... To some extent anyway XD
The Arcanist was not overpowered in my opinion, it was good, yes, but the Sorcerer had it outclassed in spells per day, as did the Wizard. Absent the 'mis-reading' glitch that many seemed to make (assuming that specializing gives more spells per day), the Arcanist was clearly the most limited in terms of spells.
It's advantage was the ability to convert it's spells into minor bonuses.. though, admittedly, 1 per spell level did add up to a lot of hopping around with dimension slide. (I'm talking about 'consume spells').
It's now limited to 1 use per point of charisma modifier... which means that it scales linearly with top spells, assuming you use your highest level spell slots to fuel it.
The problem... this goes FAR beyond a simple nerf... a class feature has gone from unlimited to 2 or 3 times a day. Worse than that, a class feature that powers all the other class features... it's so bad, in fact, I'm probably going to wind up making a lot of reversals on the eratta for my home games.
I think it would have been much better to cap the total spell levels or points gained at Cha * Highest Spell Level points per day. Or to not cap it at all.
My problem, however, is how the instability and surprise nerfs affect players... and even those who have old copies of books. Eratta should be common sense clarification... not full-on redesigns. (Though, sometimes it's necessary, as in the case of the Constitution casting scarred witchdoctor and it's single attribute dependency).
One players character was suddenly unplayable due to having 9 Cha. Even with a higher Cha, he bounced around the battlefield so often (and needed that maneuverability) that he would deplete his entire reserve in mere rounds.
Can you recommend a new character for me?
How does this make you feel about your books?
Has anything else been nerfed this hard? (Besides the silly [does it make sense, yes, does it double cost? Yes] ruling that the already weak Monk has to alternate 'flurry' with two weapons?)Small question on the above... I was reading the Monk class, seems to me he still needs two weapons to flurry, just has 20 BAB so he can switch to normal attacks... is this correct or was there some change in the wording?
Also, is there an old copy of the Paizo Pathfinder PRD archived anywhere??? I don't like a lot of the new eratta and when I make a home game I will be un-nerfing some stuff and Rule-0-ing some rulings.
Paizo, if you're reading this... old prd archives??? By date? Please tell me you kept them. I don't really want to have to search through internet backups and manually copy things over. It would take a year... and if I had to go that far I'd... it would be a lot of work and I would rather avoid a year long project! The less work I can do, the better for both of us.
I am playing an arcanist now by the PRD rules, and I am having no problems with it. Having played a sorcerer and wizard before I do think it is better than a sorcerer and not as good as a wizard. I also tend to conserve spells no matter which of the 3 classes I play so running out of spells is a nonissue for me around level 7.
I also don't see why you think dimensional slide is limited by charisma.
It goes off of the arcane reservior according to the PRD, and unless I am at very low levels I get more than 3 of those starting off.
This is not even an issue aka "it's not a hard nerf". I guess for his playstyle it is an issue. As the GM I would ignore Paizo's rules that I really don't like. :)
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You're aware that Paizo only issues errata when a new edition of a book is printed, right? So what you're claiming here is that they not only designed a nerf to make a non-competing class look better, but that they also engineered it so that the book that the changed class was in would be reprinted at roughly the same time as the non-competing class was released? Do you realize how farfetched that sounds? I mean, holy crap dude. You're reading way too much into how they operate.Errata? Yes. FAQ? No.
But like I said... There's nothing else to be discussed. We'll just have to accept each other's opinion.
How dare you post this on the Internet! Agreeing to disagree is never an option! Argue, argue argue!!!
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Paizo doesn't admit to differences in power between classes. It is, to quote "a myth propogated by people with agendas." There's no nicheprotection going on here. A niche for the URogue doesn't exist because there are better ways of doing absolutely everything that it does. In most cases with just one class. Swashbuckler doesn't really have much of a niche either, because none of the pure martial classes have a real niche beyond "guy who hits things with stuff." SWD isn't intruding on Kineticist's niche, because they have wildly different roles, unless the people looking at niches have a terminal failure of understanding of what exactly the niches of these two classes are, beyond being guys who cast off of constitution.
Ulgh, please, please stop thinking of 'better'! Nicheprotection has nothing (ok, well, something...) to do with results. Its about methods. Most of us know and agree the rogue's functions can be assumed by a plethora of other classes. 'Better' even. Not the point! Its all about how classes accomplish whatever it needs to get results. If Dex to damage is so easy to take and use by others one of the rogue and swashbuckler's shticks is no longer its shtick. Sometimes, this is complex, sometimes its simple. Making the Kineticist the only Con-class is a good example of the latter. I will say though... If I'm right (I'm not saying I am, just saying you aren't. Sorry.), IF, I don't agree with the change. It removes much of the flavor and uniqueness of the Scarred Witchdoctor. But that doesn't change what happened or why... Wouldn't it be nice if they gave us their reasoning for some of these changes, though?
Really, this all relies on Paizo desiging a game, and then actively trying to maintain a certain balance that they don't understand and have perviously stated does not exist. It's preposterous on the face of it.
So preposterous in fact I have a hard time believing your argument. Paizo's been around for a while, as has Pathfinder. This means they have experience. They frequent these boards meaning they know how we feel and think about things. They play the game themselves, some even admit they like to make powerful builds aka minmax, meaning they cannot deny the difference (Which doesn't stop anyne from actually doing so. I wouldn't admit that the wizard is so good as to invalidate most of the other options if I were trying to sell the game, after all!). Taken together I find your argument of ignorant incompetence to be utterly laughable. They know what they're doing. Its obvious to me that powerlevels or balance just aren't their toppriority when issueing their errata. I believe it must then be nicheprotection. Mainly because I cannot think of anything else it could be... I'm open to suggestions. Or better yet, the actual answers!
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Isn't this old news? Why is this coming up now? Where were you guys when all the boards were going crazy over the Advanced Class Guide nerfs?
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Isn't this old news? Why is this coming up now? Where were you guys when all the boards were going crazy over the Advanced Class Guide nerfs?
Where were they? Probably going crazy, I imagine. You can get a lot of mileage out of this sort of thing.
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Isn't this old news? Why is this coming up now? Where were you guys when all the boards were going crazy over the Advanced Class Guide nerfs?
I was enjoying the Advanced Class Guide. As it was printed.
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Spirit's Gift is not nothing, this is the feat before:
http://web.archive.org/web/20141006141912/http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/gen eral-feats/spirit-s-gift
And this is the current one.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spirit-s-gift
Its OK!
Nerfing Spirit's Gift allows the printing of Ritual Hex in its place!Also there is always the Twilight Sage that won't ever get touched (as its not from a major book)! You can Consume Life all day! Trade two exploits for a near infinite Reservoir? Sign me up!
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Well... ritual hex looks disgusting. Just take 10 to auto get a (possibly greater)hex? Not bad.
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Technically you can't Take 10 on Occult Rituals.
These checks cannot benefit from the aid another action, and the caster attempting the check can't take 10 or take 20, even if she has an ability that would normally allow her to do so when threatened or distracted.
But with a Witch, I had a +19 bonus at Level 6 so it was pretty much just lip service at that point to roll. Its a very strong Feat, I honestly don't feel the need to take Extra Hex most of the time now.
Take Cackle until you get a Blouse, then take Flight with Ritual Hex and once you get Overland Flight scrap it for a new Major Hex. Need Potions? Take Cauldron during Downtime. Scouting head before entering the dungeon? Take 40 minutes to grab Hag's Eye.
Heck, if you're a Shaman you have Craft Wondrous Item and Cauldron on demand during Downtime (though its a little harder to hit the DC early on) because they have access to Witch Hexes for whatever reason.
Very strong.
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Ritual Hex doesn't seem to prevent Shamans from gaining Major Hexes and Grand Hexes (which they normally can't get).
Wonder if Ritual Hex will eventually get nerfed to uselessness . . . .
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It's in player companion so not likely.
Ritual Hex doesn't seem to prevent Shamans from gaining Major Hexes and Grand Hexes (which they normally can't get).
Though you can make a good argument that since Shaman never gain major or grand hexes in the first place they don't fulfill the "for which she qualifies" part of the ritual.
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It's in player companion so not likely.
Unless Fencing Grace is a sign of things to come.
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It's in player companion so not likely.Unless Fencing Grace is a sign of things to come.
Whahaha, people thought because it was soft cover it was safe.
Little did they know that they were targets of the nefarious Nerf Bat.From Intrigue book coming out, he is a super villian that nerfs all he sees. Used to be a simple effreeti then he realizes he can uses his wishes himself as along as they were nerfs to the rules of the universe and not things for himself.
Beware Nerf Bat is here.
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^Now I've got this vision of an Efreeti in a Batman outfit, patrolling for overpowered parts of the universe to prune, in a misguided but genuine effort to restore balance . . . .
I always thought it was the Spell Sage(a baaaaad archetype) that caused the Paragon Surge/Eldritch Heritage nerf.
Spell Sage isn't half as bad as it first seems if you start using Preferred Spell with it.
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I came here expecting this to be about how nerf bats and pain spells both do nonlethal, and arguing over what nonlethal damage is supposed to represent.
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Wonder why I didn't think of this before: With respect to the hypothesis that the Scarred Witch Doctor was changed away from Constitution-based casting to offer niche protection to the Kineticist: If that was the case, then why does Sorcerer get to have decent if not outstanding Wildblooded Bloodlines that let it have Intelligence-based casting (steps on toes of Wizard, Arcanist, and Psychic, among others) or Wisdom-based casting (steps on toes of most prepared divine casters and even one of the spontaneous divine casters)?
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Because Sorcerer isn't using a physical to cast instead of mental.
SWD did use a physical.