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This whole "looks like a drow but isn't" thing is actually kind of fascinating on an in-game vs. out-of-game level.
Let's say Player X shows up at a game with an elf or half-elf character. When asked to describe the character, they grin and describe them as very dark-skinned with very light or even white hair.
In-world, the other characters, unless elves or half-elves familiar with the Shin'Rakorath/Lantern Bearers (or just Int-casters or Loracles with Knowledges out the wazoo), would have no reason to react to this in any way. Drow are a forcibly kept secret and so on.
Out-of-game, the players are probably sighing at what is clearly a drow pastiche and meant to be one. Yet their response should not be reflected in the responses of their characters. Or the NPCs the party meets. Or, in fact, anyone in the whole game world other than those privy to the secret of the existence of the drow.
So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?
I'm sure that's part of it for the same people that create anything niche or sqwicky they know will get a reaction. That's how some folks are wired.
But largely it's a Fandom thing. I love Drizzt too. He's an awesome character, and after the Dark Elf Trilogy an incredibly developed one. I'd daresay, even compared to characters like Elminster, Drizzt is the single most developed character in the history of RPG fiction. And in many cases, of all fantasy/Sci-fi genre fiction.
He's hugely popular, and when you have a beloved character like that, folks naturally want to mimic it. It just became so prevalent in organized play in the last 2 decades, that there is serious Drizzt fatigue.
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To be fair, Pathfinder Society allows people to own slaves (and people are just fine with it even), so...Which has absolutely no relevance to this thread whatsoever.
You can not play a reskinned drow in PFS... period. You can play a dark brown skinned elf or half elf from Garund or Mwangi, but not the coal black tone from the Underdark.
The posts providing context for the slavery comment were some of the ones deleted by Chris.
captain yesterday's point was in reference to evil people (such as slave owners) being allowed to be members of the Society, but that drow wouldnt be allowed.
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So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?Non-conformity and trope subversion. Anyone with even a modicum of literary theory knows that "tropes are bad, mm'kay?" and that all the cool people are failing to conform to the tropes. It helps, of course, that what literary theorists call "tropes" are called "stereotypes" in the real world, and stereotyped thinking is, in fact, often actively harmful, so you shouldn't do it (mm'kay?)
So you need to play a drow because traditional elves have been done to death. And you need to play a morally questionable if not evil character because heroes are so dated. And you need to be cynical and questioning because otherwise how will you show that you're aware of the limitations of the tropes?
And then you can be a bonafide nonconformist like everybody else. (See also here.)
It's more than this though. Playing the anti-hero is fun. From Riddick to Robin Hood, the anti-hero is a fun and popular theme.
To be fair, Pathfinder Society allows people to own slaves (and people are just fine with it even), so...Which has absolutely no relevance to this thread whatsoever.
You can not play a reskinned drow in PFS... period. You can play a dark brown skinned elf or half elf from Garund or Mwangi, but not the coal black tone from the Underdark.
The posts providing context for the slavery comment were some of the ones deleted by Chris.
captain yesterday's point was in reference to evil people (such as slave owners) being allowed to be members of the Society, but that drow wouldnt be allowed.
But you are not allowed to play evil characters as an on-going PC. And owning slaves by itself doesn't make a character evil. (we're not talking about one-offs who aren't Society members anyway) If Drow pcs were allowed every one and his idiot half-brother would want to play one, which would destroy the image of a drow surface adventurer being an incredibly rare, probably unique creature.
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It's more than this though. Playing the anti-hero is fun. From Riddick to Robin Hood, the anti-hero is a fun and popular theme.
So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?Non-conformity and trope subversion. Anyone with even a modicum of literary theory knows that "tropes are bad, mm'kay?" and that all the cool people are failing to conform to the tropes. It helps, of course, that what literary theorists call "tropes" are called "stereotypes" in the real world, and stereotyped thinking is, in fact, often actively harmful, so you shouldn't do it (mm'kay?)
So you need to play a drow because traditional elves have been done to death. And you need to play a morally questionable if not evil character because heroes are so dated. And you need to be cynical and questioning because otherwise how will you show that you're aware of the limitations of the tropes?
And then you can be a bonafide nonconformist like everybody else. (See also here.)
Robin Hood is an anti-hero?
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Robin Hood is an anti-hero?It's more than this though. Playing the anti-hero is fun. From Riddick to Robin Hood, the anti-hero is a fun and popular theme.
So... what exactly is the lure of looking like a drow? Getting players to roll their eyes?Non-conformity and trope subversion. Anyone with even a modicum of literary theory knows that "tropes are bad, mm'kay?" and that all the cool people are failing to conform to the tropes. It helps, of course, that what literary theorists call "tropes" are called "stereotypes" in the real world, and stereotyped thinking is, in fact, often actively harmful, so you shouldn't do it (mm'kay?)
So you need to play a drow because traditional elves have been done to death. And you need to play a morally questionable if not evil character because heroes are so dated. And you need to be cynical and questioning because otherwise how will you show that you're aware of the limitations of the tropes?
And then you can be a bonafide nonconformist like everybody else. (See also here.)
To some he is, because he's a law breaker.
To some he is, because he's a law breaker.
Robin Hood is an anti-hero?
Wikipedia defines an antihero as "a protagonist who lacks conventional heroic qualities such as idealism, courage, or morality." TV Tropes offers a similar definition: "an antihero is a protagonist who has the opposite of most of the traditional attributes of a hero." I would say that under this definition, Robin Hood does not quality -- he's definitely a moral and courageous idealist. The heroic rebel -- from Spartacus through Captain Blood to Luke Skywalker -- is still a hero, even if he would be chaotic good in D&D/PF terms.
But, of course, antiheroes are trendy, because good and evil are so dated.....
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To some he is, because he's a law breaker.
Robin Hood is an anti-hero?
Sort of - but he's only breaking the laws of someone who has no right to make the laws in the first place (Prince John & his lackeys). Once Richard shows up he bends knee and stops robbing etc. (And in older stories he didn't just rob from the rich in general for the most part - he robbed tax-collectors etc. - who had basically just finished robbing the general populace due to Prince John's jacked up taxes.)
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ugh guys GUYS
pig dog was settled a long time ago
Piggate was never settled fully.
While rulings were made that made obvious reskinnings barred (such as normal elves who look drow or pigs that use dog stats), it only created massive corner case issues with what is description vs what is reskinning.Is a Beklyar-blooded half-elf who bleaches his hair legal?
Are non-gnome standard races with vibrant hair colors legal despite there being no legal source of hair dye?
What about a human who is mixed human heritages such as a Garundi/Tien? What physical attributes can a celestial horse have?
Can Racial Heritage give you non-mechanical physical attributes?
How long is a shortsword before it becomes a longsword?
This reskinning vs description problem has been going on and on in the forums ever since.
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The Society in general isnt doing anything to keep info about the drow secret (not that you were suggesting they were) considering theyre willing to send characters as low as level 5 off to face some in a scenario.** spoiler omitted **
Though, in the missions you listed, the mision giver doesn't actually know there are drow where they are sending you. As an aside, one of the mid-level subtiers (5-6 or 7-8, I think) of one of the recent multi-table scenarios has driders as bad guys.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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So let's sum up this conversation:
1. Can I have a brown-skinned elf or half-elf? Absolutely. In addition to the Ekujae there are two other elf tribes native to the Mwangi expanse.
2. Can I pretend to be a drow? Nope. You likely don't know drow exist.
3. Can I emulate Drizzt? Not if it means pretending to be a drow. But if you want to be angsty and weild two weapons as an elf, go ahead. Still keep in mind there are other ideas out there, and this one has become cliche.
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Does this sum it all up?
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But, of course, antiheroes are trendy, because good and evil are so dated.....
an antihero by definition changes with societies idea of conventional heroic qualities. When your convention is the law abiding knight in shining armor the guy shooting said knight from behind a tree is the antihero. Once that guy is embraced as a hero the definition moves.
When superman is your definition of hero, batman is your anti hero
When batman is your definition of hero, spiderman is your anti hero*
When spiderman is the hero, deadpool becomes the anti hero hero
... really not sure where it goes from there. You reconstruct superman and start the cycle over?
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So, I really have to ask; is this a real problem? I'm being dead honest here, has anybody ever been turned away because they actually wanted to play Drizzt Clone #423, let along something even tangentially related to it?
I only ask because this seems like the most pedantic things I've ever seen in my life. Also, for bonus points, do I also get to ban other direct ripoff characters from my table, or only the ones from R. A. Salvatore Novels?
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So let's sum up this conversation:
1. Can I have a brown-skinned elf or half-elf? Absolutely. In addition to the Ekujae there are two other elf tribes native to the Mwangi expanse.
2. Can I pretend to be a drow? Nope. You likely don't know drow exist.
3. Can I emulate Drizzt? Not if it means pretending to be a drow. But if you want to be angsty and weild two weapons as an elf, go ahead. Still keep in mind there are other ideas out there, and this one has become cliche.
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Does this sum it all up?
Except you left out the "GWAAARRRR YOU SUCK!" "NO YOU SUCK!" "NO YOU DO!" Banhammer! parts but other than that pretty spot on summary
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I did have a kid who wanted a ninja TWFing with scimitars. I tried to talk him into using wakizashis to save the proficiency feat and the extra TWF penalties, but he wanted "scimitar" on his character sheet, so whatever.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I think that cliches are actually the vast majority of initial character concepts I've seen in PFS from first time players. If you haven't played before, you have to take your ideas from somewhere, right? I don't mind them, but I remember the original and weird concepts more. Honestly, my only problem with moody twf elves is the moodiness. Makes it hard to embrace the teamwork virtues of Explore, Cooperate and Report.
I don't think we're talking about banning anyone from the table over recreating a fannish concept. We're just making it clear that you can't be a drow because you don't know what they are.
Hmm
But, of course, antiheroes are trendy, because good and evil are so dated.....an antihero by definition changes with societies idea of conventional heroic qualities.
The only problem with this is that the concept of an antihero is itself largely a modern creation. The immediate precursors (for example, A.J. Raffles' and the "gentleman thief," or Sam Spade and the "hard-boiled detective" tropes) are clearly heroic characters. Similarly, Batman wasn't initially an antihero; he was a hero in a different tradition than Superman (Batman was basically a detective knockoff, hence his close relation with the Gotham PD; Supes followed the older mythological hero tropes).
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Sort of - but he's only breaking the laws of someone who has no right to make the laws in the first place (Prince John & his lackeys).
You mean the guy legally in charge of the country because his brother went off to war?
who had basically just finished robbing the general populace due to Prince John's jacked up taxes.)
To pay for the war that his brother ran off too... knights are EXPENSIVE.
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You mean the guy legally in charge of the country because his brother went off to war?
Sort of - but he's only breaking the laws of someone who has no right to make the laws in the first place (Prince John & his lackeys).
Depends on which version of the story you follow -- but that's true in NONE of them, as far as I know.
In some versions, he's exceeding his authority by stepping on the traditional rights guaranteed to the barons (remember that England was never an absolute monarchy) and raising taxes beyond what he's permitted to. In other versions, he's defrauding the monarchy by using money ostensibly for Richard's ransom to enrich himself. (In fact, historically, John offered Richard's captors a bribe to refuse to release him, even if the ransom was paid -- this bribe was, naturally, refused, because it would have been an incredibly dishonorable action.) In some versions, he's simply a usurper who has never actually been granted the authority to rule.
In the actual historical version, as I describe below, all three of those are true.
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But, of course, antiheroes are trendy, because good and evil are so dated.....an antihero by definition changes with societies idea of conventional heroic qualities.
The only problem with this is that the concept of an antihero is itself largely a modern creation. The immediate precursors (for example, A.J. Raffles' and the "gentleman thief," or Sam Spade and the "hard-boiled detective" tropes) are clearly heroic characters. Similarly, Batman wasn't initially an antihero; he was a hero in a different tradition than Superman (Batman was basically a detective knockoff, hence his close relation with the Gotham PD; Supes followed the older mythological hero tropes).
Nah, the second you establish a trope some hack like homer goes and subverts it.
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Just in case anyone thinks that BNW knows what he's talking about w.r.t. Robin Hood, here are some of the historical facts (which were of course well known to the contemporary minstrels and which formed the basis of the earliest tales):
* Prince John never had the authority to rule in Richard I's stead. Before he left for the Crusades, Richard appointed a young child (Arthur of Brittany, nephew to Richard) as heir to the throne, and two nobles (Bishop Hugh de Puiset and William Mandeville) as essentially co-regents (their actual title was "justiciar").
* Prince John refused to recognize their authority and set himself up with an alternative royal court, culminating in armed conflict with the co-justiciars. John appointed himself heir to the throne and ruler.
* Richard was captured on his crusade, and John initially let it be known (falsely) that Richard was dead, while secretly negotiating to have him held prisoner indefinitely.
And, of course, John's position with regard to the traditional rights of both the barons as well as the commoners is/was well-known.
It's very difficult to make a counter-narrative where John is a good guy and Robin Hood an anti-hero (especially since the idea of an antihero didn't exist until the 20th century), but I'm sure some idiot will try it. Just not as part of the standard Robin Hood legendarium as it actually exists.
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The antihero archetype can be traced back at least as far as Homer's Thersites.[7] The concept has also been identified in classical Greek drama,[8] Roman satire, and Renaissance literature[7] such as Don Quixote[8][9] and the picaresque rogue.[10] Although antiheroes may sometimes do the "right thing", it is more because it serves their self-interest rather than being morally correct.[11]
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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2) Most Golarion residents haven't seen a drow. But no, an Ekujae elf or half-elf isn't likely to be mistaken for a drow, because the vast majority of Golarion residents don't know drow exist (the elves even have an entire organization, the Lantern Bearers, dedicated to keeping it that way). Those humans in a position to know about the drow--like academics, senior members of the Pathfinder Society, etc.--know enough to tell the difference between an Ekujae elf and a drow.
You see the confusing part about this is that potentially every single member of the Pathfinder Society would actually know about the Drow existing by level 1. Its also probably why people are talking over each other because the fluff severely contradicts itself to the point this statement makes no sense.
Excellent post here. :DThe Society in general isnt doing anything to keep info about the drow secret (not that you were suggesting they were) considering theyre willing to send characters as low as level 5 off to face some in a scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
Its also heavily implied that the Aspis or another faction clearly knows about them too which also then leads into level 1 characters learning about them.
No ones going to complain if your elf bakes cookies.
No it just looks like horrendously bad writing that's all.
EDIT:
Hilariously, I can think of worst elves to emulate than drow.
Bah... Im talking about the number elf.
Just in case anyone thinks that BNW knows what he's talking about w.r.t. Robin Hood, here are some of the historical facts (which were of course well known to the contemporary minstrels and which formed the basis of the earliest tales):
* Prince John never had the authority to rule in Richard I's stead. Before he left for the Crusades, Richard appointed a young child (Arthur of Brittany, nephew to Richard) as heir to the throne, and two nobles (Bishop Hugh de Puiset and William Mandeville) as essentially co-regents (their actual title was "justiciar").
* Prince John refused to recognize their authority and set himself up with an alternative royal court, culminating in armed conflict with the co-justiciars. John appointed himself heir to the throne and ruler.
* Richard was captured on his crusade, and John initially let it be known (falsely) that Richard was dead, while secretly negotiating to have him held prisoner indefinitely.
And, of course, John's position with regard to the traditional rights of both the barons as well as the commoners is/was well-known.
It's very difficult to make a counter-narrative where John is a good guy and Robin Hood an anti-hero (especially since the idea of an antihero didn't exist until the 20th century), but I'm sure some idiot will try it. Just not as part of the standard Robin Hood legendarium as it actually exists.
As I understood it, it was John who raised the hefty ransom required to get Richard out of Saladin's prison, and this required 1. hefty taxes, 2. Nobles cooperation to get those taxes, and 3. His signing of the Magna Carta weakening the powers of the throne in exchange for number 2.
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The Robin Hood myth has been mutated several times, as well. Originally he was a folk hero: a commoner who struck back at the oppressive aristocracy in general.
Then the people with the leisure time to read and write novels (i.e. aristocrats) got ahold of him and he was appropriated into a usurped noble (i.e. Robert of Locksley), fighting against an usurper of the monarchy (John, Prince of Wales.) The fact that the common people were caught in the middle in this version is largely incidental: it isn't a story about protecting the commoners from oppressive rule, it's about protecting 'legitimate' nobility from upstarts.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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So let's sum up this conversation:
1. Can I have a brown-skinned elf or half-elf? Absolutely. In addition to the Ekujae there are two other elf tribes native to the Mwangi expanse.
2. Can I pretend to be a drow? Nope. You likely don't know drow exist.
3. Can I emulate Drizzt? Not if it means pretending to be a drow. But if you want to be angsty and weild two weapons as an elf, go ahead. Still keep in mind there are other ideas out there, and this one has become cliche.
4. People like arguing about what an antihero is or isn't.
5. People like arguing about the facts of Robin Hood, a legendary character, whose narrative differs depending on the version you consult.
6. You can get a boon to change your color.
7. People like arguing, period.
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At this point, I'm doing this summary for my own amusement more than anything else.
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The only problem with this is that the concept of an antihero is itself largely a modern creation. The immediate precursors (for example, A.J. Raffles' and the "gentleman thief," or Sam Spade and the "hard-boiled detective" tropes) are clearly heroic characters. Similarly, Batman wasn't initially an antihero; he was a hero in a different tradition than Superman (Batman was basically a detective knockoff, hence his close relation with the Gotham PD; Supes followed the older mythological hero tropes).
But, of course, antiheroes are trendy, because good and evil are so dated.....an antihero by definition changes with societies idea of conventional heroic qualities.
The modern definition of "anti-hero" is really just "hero who happens to be a jerk." The original definition was "admirable protagonist who is working on the wrong side"--the guy that everyone loves but you just can't let him win because he's actually the villain and has terrible plans for the world. In my Lit studies (cough cough) years ago, the first "recognized" anti-hero was Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost: he's the protagonist, he's compelling and sympathetic, but c'mon--he's frickin' Satan! He's literally the definition of the "bad guy" in Milton's time, and if he "wins" everyone winds up in hell.
Magneto is a great example of this kind of anti-hero, as is Darth Vader, Frankenstein's monster, heck even the Terminator and Godzilla probably qualify. (Often, in a sequel, an anti-hero is redeemed and brought over to the "light side" because he's just too popular to continue as the villain.)
In the original concept of anti-hero, rogue or outlaw heroes were never considered anti-heroes, and the dark, brooding hero was just a dark, brooding hero. Then the "have to be bad to be successful" hero became popular, and the definition became muddled. Now it's unrecognizable, and these darn kids should get off my literary lawn! :-)
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Yeah, it was hard enough finding another person with that boon, to choose the effect, when they were less than a year old...If you want a PC that looks like a visual 'drow'.
There is a boon I've held on to for a while. it will give you the permanent skin tone and nothing else.
I still haven't had a good chance to use mine, actually.
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I still haven't had a good chance to use mine, actually.Yeah, it was hard enough finding another person with that boon, to choose the effect, when they were less than a year old...If you want a PC that looks like a visual 'drow'.
There is a boon I've held on to for a while. it will give you the permanent skin tone and nothing else.
Yeah I have been waiting for a while to use it on my elf, but he's 6th level now so I will have to wait some more.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I still haven't had a good chance to use mine, actually.Yeah, it was hard enough finding another person with that boon, to choose the effect, when they were less than a year old...If you want a PC that looks like a visual 'drow'.
There is a boon I've held on to for a while. it will give you the permanent skin tone and nothing else.
If it is the one I'm thinking, I took the Advanced Template to save Ksenia in Waking rune
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If it is the one I'm thinking, I took the Advanced Template to save Ksenia in Waking runeI still haven't had a good chance to use mine, actually.Yeah, it was hard enough finding another person with that boon, to choose the effect, when they were less than a year old...If you want a PC that looks like a visual 'drow'.
There is a boon I've held on to for a while. it will give you the permanent skin tone and nothing else.
Yeah, I've been waiting for the chance to play something good and long like Tomb of the Iron Medusa to use that boon.
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Ideally, guidelines that don't allow a GM to kick out a player for saying "My character is Black."
Well, if you want to get this changed quick, find that "A GM may, at his own discretion, decide that a character's skin is too dark to be legal for play" quote and put it on facebook as an official Paizo stance....Might get yourself kicked, but they'd address it quickly.
Racism shouldn't be allowed by Paizo, much less, endorsed.
As for playing a "half drow." Drow are elves. Half-elf or Elf should look enough like a drow for casual purposes. Regarding skin tones, the disguise skill for minor details only should qualify if changing tones of your skin.
Personally, I've never been a fan of the D&D/Paizo skin-tone based races. I think skin tones are player preference and the lighter toned drow just use make-up to blend into the darkness. The Charcoal skinned drow never made much sense, anyway, as lack of exposure to the sun would more likely create albino elves than dark-skinned ones.
The Robin Hood myth has been mutated several times, as well. Originally he was a folk hero: a commoner who struck back at the oppressive aristocracy in general.
Then the people with the leisure time to read and write novels (i.e. aristocrats) got ahold of him and he was appropriated into a usurped noble (i.e. Robert of Locksley), fighting against an usurper of the monarchy (John, Prince of Wales.) The fact that the common people were caught in the middle in this version is largely incidental: it isn't a story about protecting the commoners from oppressive rule, it's about protecting 'legitimate' nobility from upstarts.
Thanks, I was going to point this out.
And I'll add that the definition of "antihero" has likely shifted, since the idea of what are "heroic" traits" have as well. Odds are, plenty of nobles would have regarded the yeoman Robin Hood an antihero, since he was a peasant bandit, regardless of his other qualities. Meanwhile, the narrative in which he is a noble fighting for his land could probably justify an antiheroic "restore the status quo" narrative.
That said, neither narrative would really fit our current definitions of "antihero". If Robin Hood was an antihero once, he no longer fits the bill.
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Murdock, taking quotes out of context and blasting them over social media just muddies the issue and polarizes the debate. Please don't encourage this where reasoned discussion will do just as well.
Hmm
Was being sarcastic regarding the expedient solution. Didn't mean to encourage.
I do think that if PFS actually has an official stance that limits skin color of player characters, that's certainly racism, at least, how racism is addressed in modern america.
If you want to play a blue, red, purple or black skinned half-Orc, I don't care. That's a player preference and doesn't matter for most sessions. I'd encourage you to paint your model to reflect your desired appearance, but beyond that it really doesn't matter.
If you want a mechanical benefit for a skin tone, that's something that PFS can/should limit.
As for Drow Vs black-Skinned Elves, I don't think they are the same thing. Dwarves might not see a difference, but the elves and drow know where the difference is and it isn't one of color.
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Murdock, taking quotes out of context and blasting them over social media just muddies the issue and polarizes the debate. Please don't encourage this where reasoned discussion will do just as well.
Hmm
Was being sarcastic regarding the expedient solution. Didn't mean to encourage.
I do think that if PFS actually has an official stance that limits skin color of player characters, that's certainly racism, at least, how racism is addressed in modern america.
Saying someone can't play a purple character isn't racism, no. And please don't trivialize actual racism by equating the two.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Murdock, taking quotes out of context and blasting them over social media just muddies the issue and polarizes the debate. Please don't encourage this where reasoned discussion will do just as well.
Hmm
Was being sarcastic regarding the expedient solution. Didn't mean to encourage.
I do think that if PFS actually has an official stance that limits skin color of player characters, that's certainly racism, at least, how racism is addressed in modern america.
So you are pro yellow tengu?
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Yellow tengu have long been marginalized by their actually-existing peers.
Have you seen my wittle tweety bird?
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Actually, yellow Tengu are a big one to consider.
As I stated before, there is no legal source for dye.
However, it's not uncommon for people to have characters with outlandish hair colors in PFS and for such things to be simply hand waived.
The same goes for armor and clothing: there's no upcharge in an item's price for it's color.
It's just assumed that you can get whatever color you desire.
Now, feathers can be dyed.
If a Taldan can have red hair (while by the books they do not), then they must be coloring their hair.
What is to prevent a tengu from bleaching and dying their feathers?