Balancing the Gunslinger

[Deadalready]

I'm starting a new custom campaign which will probably end about level 5/6, which will involve humanoid, animal with limited undead enemies. One of my players has asked to play a gunslinger, which I'm hesitant to allow as they seem extremely strong, based on my research on the class most player/gm response is they are too strong for most normal games.

So I'm looking for ways to allow this class without it outclassing the other players at the table (who will be largely new players). My major concerns on how to balance it's almost "always hit" bab/touch attacks.

What are some ideas or balances for the gunslinger?

[My Self]

Remove misfire chance, hit against flatfooted AC instead of touch AC. Make ammo cheap.

Alternatively, point your player at the Bolt Ace archetype.

[Zwordsman]

well could have them be a bol ace.

google round there are plenty of people who altered stuff.
The most popular is simply removing the touch AC hitting.

I'm of the camp that they aren't overly strong. Since reloading and ammo is so very expensive and reloading requires a fair bit of focus.

I know there have been several threads about this too if you want ot use the forum search for it.

but yeah. TLDR easy altering is the removal of touch AC. be aware that it makes it kinda moot as a weapon.
I suppose you could take a page out of the Bolt Ace. and give them a free Deed to pay to hit touch ac if you wanted a bit of both.

[kinevon]

Until 5th level, a Gunslinger, without massive hijinx, is weaksauce.

Sure, he can hit fairly well, assuming Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, but his damage is low, and he fires fairly slowly. If he takes Rapid Reload instead, he will fire more often, but his chance to hit goes down. At low levels, low CR stuff frequently has Touch AC around the same as regular AC.

At 5th level, the Gunslinger's damage goes up, since he now gets Dex-to-Damage. Meh. Keep guns fairly controlled, and use the errata for things like the double-barreled firearms, where they get the choice of firing both barrels, at -4 to hit, as a Standard, or fire the barrels individually, at normal to hit, as regular iteratives.

It is really at high levels, well past where your game is going, that Gunslingers get ridiculous, and most of that is that high CR monsters usually have no Dex mods, and penalties to AC because they are Large or bigger, and use Natural Armor to compensate. CR 20 Red Dragon has a normal AC of something like 39, even flatfooted, and a Touch AC of 5. At that point, with the magical enhancements expected at that level of play, the Gunslinger really shines. But probably not as much as before the double-barrel firearm errata, and probably not as well as a God Wizard.

[hiiamtom]

Guns target Reflex saves instead of AC. Targeting saves makes way more sense if you want something to feel different than touch AC. Guns don't crit or misfire, the reload speed is enough of a restraint. Magic porperties/feats/equipemnt/deeds can make them use different areas of effect instead of a single targeted shot.

Many, many more deeds and they are prepared at the beginning of the day. This way you might have 3 1st level, 3rd level, and every 2 not 4 after; but you can keep adding to them like Rage Powers or any other useful class ability. And the deeds should scale like spells and not scale like garbage.

Grit fuels deeds, and fills faster. Maybe rolling max result on damage die instead of crits, killing with a firearm, as a GM reward, and recover half the pool after combat. Maybe grit can fuel DCs of reflex saves as a "vanilla" option to spend like arcane reservoir points, and maybe give a minor d20 roll boost like a +2 or something to push that roll on the edge over.

Nimble is a fine generic meh ability, bonus feats are fine, and gun training can increase DCs or give some tactical options by using advanced weapon training and apply to all firearms.

[Baval]

Gunslinger doesnt get huge damage numbers till later levels, when he can reload as a free action and add his dex to damage. Before that, its a glorified crossbow

[Deadalready]

Great advice with the Bolt Ace archtype as I think my player is interested in the odd feats/abilities of the gunslinger. I've asked him to have a look at it and we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for all suggestions!

[N. Jolly]

Let me again suggest the bolt ace, but touch on something that kinevon mentioned as well.

Instead of giving gun/crossbow training at 5th level, give it at first, but cap the amount of damage it can do by the character's level. So a first level bolt ace can only add 1 point of their dex bonus to damage, 2 at second, and so on. The reason for this is because normally 5th level is a HUGE spike in damage, and it can really be jarring if you're not ready for it. Changing things to this suggestion can help you get a far more steady damage curve while making it less of an attractive dip option as well.

[wraithstrike]

Gunslingers are surpassed by archers until you bring in dualweilding them or double barreled weapons and the ability to reload both barrels so as to get extra attacks.