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I would like to get some kind of final ruling on exactly how attacking out of concealment works in pathfinder as this has caused multiple rule arguments in the lodge that I play. Let us look at 2 NPCs. NPC Tom and NPC Jerry.
Both Tom and Jerry are human. Tom is standing inside an area of darkness, obscuring mist, or fog cloud on the edge of said area with a long spear (reach weapon) pointed at Jerry. This is pictured here.
Now take a look at the rules for concealment.
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.
In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.
When Tom attacks Jerry will have have to role miss chance? Keep in mind Tom is not adjacent to Jerry.
More of a rules forum question. You'll probably get moved over there.
The rules make more sense if lines are not really "sided" but exist as zero points , so a line from the edge of the fog doesn't pass through itself, so Tom has concealment and jerry does not.
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You have it right, Tom standing at the edge of an obscuring mist benefits from concealment while his enemy does not.
But it gets better when Tom is using obscuring mist:
A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
Because Jerry is further than 5 feet away from Tom and Tom is in the mist. Tom has total concealment from Jerry. A great trick for a ranged rogue.
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How would this work if someone was in Tom's square (like a tiny creature), assuming this was darkness?
Would the tiny creature have total concealment from Tom?
Darkness doesn't have the same rules as the fog cloud.
In the darkness there would still be the same miss chance regardless of distance.
In the space would be no miss chance. I had this come up on Grr , a fox form fighter who invades peoples personal space.
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What about instances that provide total concealment like squid ink?
For the Giant Squid
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If Tom is standing in an area of magical darkness, he cannot see Jerry. Per this FAQ. Of course, Jerry cannot see him either.
If Tom is standing in an area of Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, they can both see each other with Concealment, not Total Concealment) because there is only 5' of mist between them (counting Tom's square of mist).
If Tom is standing in normal non-magical darkness and has made a Stealth check, he can see Jerry just fine and Jerry cannot see him. Attacking will break his stealth so Jerry will now see him unless the darkness is pitch black in which case Jerry still cannot.
As for using the ranged rules to draw lines to see if any concealment applies, when Tom chooses a corner, none of his lines to Jerry's four corners passes through the concealing effect, but when Jerry chooses a corner, two of the lines that reach Tom's FARTHEST corners pass through the concealing effect so Jerry is affected by the Concealment, Tom is not.
If Tom is standing in an area of magical darkness, he cannot see Jerry. Per this FAQ. Of course, Jerry cannot see him either.
If Tom is standing in an area of Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, they can both see each other with Concealment, not Total Concealment) because there is only 5' of mist between them (counting Tom's square of mist).
If Tom is standing in normal non-magical darkness and has made a Stealth check, he can see Jerry just fine and Jerry cannot see him. Attacking will break his stealth so Jerry will now see him unless the darkness is pitch black in which case Jerry still cannot.
As for using the ranged rules to draw lines to see if any concealment applies, when Tom chooses a corner, none of his lines to Jerry's four corners passes through the concealing effect, but when Jerry chooses a corner, two of the lines that reach Tom's FARTHEST corners pass through the concealing effect so Jerry is affected by the Concealment, Tom is not.
That is incorrect on some of your points. The concealment rules state "When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment." Jerry would get no concealment from an adjacent melee attack. For a ranged attack or an attack with a reach weapon when Tom chooses the corner closest to Jerry and draws lines from that corner to all of Jerry's corners none of those lines pass through a concealed square or border of those squares. concealment rules- "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."
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That is what seems odd to me. If the example was an area of darkness, Tom could not see the creature in his space, but can see a creature that is outside of his space.
Tom can peek his head out of the darkness to aim at Jerry. There's no way to see The Fluffy Death lurking in between his legs.
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That is incorrect on some of your points. The concealment rules state "When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment." Jerry would get no concealment from an adjacent melee attack. For a ranged attack or an attack with a reach weapon when Tom chooses the corner closest to Jerry and draws lines from that corner to all of Jerry's corners none of those lines pass through a concealed square or border of those squares. concealment rules- "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."If Tom is standing in an area of magical darkness, he cannot see Jerry. Per this FAQ. Of course, Jerry cannot see him either.
If Tom is standing in an area of Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, they can both see each other with Concealment, not Total Concealment) because there is only 5' of mist between them (counting Tom's square of mist).
If Tom is standing in normal non-magical darkness and has made a Stealth check, he can see Jerry just fine and Jerry cannot see him. Attacking will break his stealth so Jerry will now see him unless the darkness is pitch black in which case Jerry still cannot.
As for using the ranged rules to draw lines to see if any concealment applies, when Tom chooses a corner, none of his lines to Jerry's four corners passes through the concealing effect, but when Jerry chooses a corner, two of the lines that reach Tom's FARTHEST corners pass through the concealing effect so Jerry is affected by the Concealment, Tom is not.
Except the OP stipulated 10' using reach weapon. This uses the Ranged rules.
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Except the OP stipulated 10' using reach weapon. This uses the Ranged rules.That is incorrect on some of your points. The concealment rules state "When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment." Jerry would get no concealment from an adjacent melee attack. For a ranged attack or an attack with a reach weapon when Tom chooses the corner closest to Jerry and draws lines from that corner to all of Jerry's corners none of those lines pass through a concealed square or border of those squares. concealment rules- "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."If Tom is standing in an area of magical darkness, he cannot see Jerry. Per this FAQ. Of course, Jerry cannot see him either.
If Tom is standing in an area of Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, they can both see each other with Concealment, not Total Concealment) because there is only 5' of mist between them (counting Tom's square of mist).
If Tom is standing in normal non-magical darkness and has made a Stealth check, he can see Jerry just fine and Jerry cannot see him. Attacking will break his stealth so Jerry will now see him unless the darkness is pitch black in which case Jerry still cannot.
As for using the ranged rules to draw lines to see if any concealment applies, when Tom chooses a corner, none of his lines to Jerry's four corners passes through the concealing effect, but when Jerry chooses a corner, two of the lines that reach Tom's FARTHEST corners pass through the concealing effect so Jerry is affected by the Concealment, Tom is not.
Umm he is the op
Except the OP stipulated 10' using reach weapon. This uses the Ranged rules.
For a ranged attack or an attack with a reach weapon when Tom chooses the corner closest to Jerry and draws lines from that corner to all of Jerry's corners none of those lines pass through a concealed square or border of those squares.
Please re-read my statment