ok, so I had an idea to basically turn BAB into a skill. The first thing is that the skill isn't just one, it'd be spread amongst the weapon groups as the fighter's class has them and dividing that into three categories:simple, martial and exotic. proficiency is converted over to treating weapons of those groups as class skills and weapon focus replaced by skill focus. among other changes, feat based increases to the skills are treated as "bonus ranks" and these open up combat tricks and advanced skills. at 6+ ranks, you can use a standard action to attack twice at a -5 penalty to the second attack and no penalties as a full round action;I could use a little help with other combat tricks. Also, classes that previously possessed fast BAB progressions gain skill focus a bonus feat that could only be used for a weapon group skill.
also, as for martial classes not really having enough skill points to throw around, but I have a fix. Fast progression classes who expend one skill point into weapon skills may spread it to 3 weapons skills;medium progression can spread to 2 and slow progression is stuck at 1.
thoughts?
That sounds somewhat... unnecessary. Skill Focus will get you a ridiculous to-hit modifier, and some skill boosters will make it practically impossible to fail to hit. Also, this still means that 1/2 BAB classes will have full BAB for one weapon group, which is a bit broken. Consider that a shapechanging wizard who maxes out their natural weapons group will have a much better hit bonus than a barbarian of the same level. Also, this favors high-skill classes with no appreciable benefit for full-martial classes who are not terribly skilled.
It favors skill classes, nerfs martial classes, and greatly buffs low to mid BAB classes (wizard, cleric, etc.) who don't need buffing. I'd say the biggest winners from this are the Wizard, Arcanist, and Investigator. Biggest loser is definitely the Fighter, who doesn't have a lot of skills to throw around, and isn't very good at skill checks.
My Self wrote: That sounds somewhat... unnecessary. This is probably the kindest thing that can be said about it.
Without a significant overhaul of the game (to the point of changing it so much that "Why aren't you just playing Mutants and Masterminds 2E?" becomes a legitimate question), this reaaaaaaaally doesn't work.
My Self wrote: That sounds somewhat... unnecessary. Skill Focus will get you a ridiculous to-hit modifier, and some skill boosters will make it practically impossible to fail to hit. Also, this still means that 1/2 BAB classes will have full BAB for one weapon group, which is a bit broken. Consider that a shapechanging wizard who maxes out their natural weapons group will have a much better hit bonus than a barbarian of the same level. Also, this favors high-skill classes with no appreciable benefit for full-martial classes who are not terribly skilled.
It favors skill classes, nerfs martial classes, and greatly buffs low to mid BAB classes (wizard, cleric, etc.) who don't need buffing. I'd say the biggest winners from this are the Wizard, Arcanist, and Investigator. Biggest loser is definitely the Fighter, who doesn't have a lot of skills to throw around, and isn't very good at skill checks.
"also, as for martial classes not really having enough skill points to throw around, but I have a fix. Fast progression classes who expend one skill point into weapon skills may spread it to 3 weapons skills;medium progression can spread to 2 and slow progression is stuck at 1."
but yeah, this was just a random idea that kinda popped into my head and figured see how it sounds to the community.
I saw that- it still doesn't fix things. A 1st level Wizard might have 7 skill points to throw around (2 from class, 4 from INT, 1 from slow BAB), and while a 1st level Fighter has the possibility of having as many (2 from class, 1 front INT, 1 from FCB, 3 from fast BAB), this isn't a fix. That's because, by, say, 12th level, the Fighter will be maxing their weapon pseudo-skill ranks and the Wizard will be able to have the same exact number of ranks, if not more. Normally, the Fighter has BAB 12 and the Wizard has BAB 6, but with this, both will have effective BAB 12. And the Wizard is much better at self-buffing than the Fighter.
This is actually a buff for Rogues, who have lots of skill points and really want better to-hit bonuses, but this is more of a buff for full casters. Wizards, Witches, Arcanists, Sorcerers, and Psychics suffer from 1/2 BAB, and this would effectively let them get full BAB at a relatively low cost. Clerics, Oracles, Shamans, and Druids would also appreciate this, as all of them are good at self-buffing. Full BAB with a 9-level buffing list is scary. Investigators and Inquisitors will enjoy this as well, since they enjoy good to-hit boosters as well as good skill points.
Oh, and Cthulhu will love this. He's only got 27 BAB, despite having 36 HD. That's a +9 to hit for the Great Dreamer, for a net +6 to hit and +6 damage with 6 attacks (with power attack) more than regular Cthulhu.
Yeah, this doesn't really work unless you rebuild the game's math from the ground up. BAB would become too valuable of a skill because PF is still largely a combat game. Every class in the game is balanced around the trade-offs between their BAB and their class features.
This will mess up AC a LOT and i mean the LOT.
Simply put , you are making easier to hit attacks , to some classes quite a bit , which means unless you also scale the defenses , you will have an issue.
And mind you , pathfinder is already a hit hard and fast or regret game , you will make it even more so.
This can work, but only if you make each plus dependent upon multiples of skill ranks (e.g. every 4 skill ranks gives you a +1 to your BAB).
You can then make BAB a class skill for the fighter types.
Trying to make it a straight skill, will, s others have said, break the game.
I would also make itterives based on class rather than bonus so accuracy is all it affects.
christos gurd wrote: I would also make itterives based on class rather than bonus so accuracy is all it affects. ^^This
Spell-less get 1 additional attack every 5 levels, d10/12 every 6, d8 every 8, d6 every 10. Make it fractional rounded down for multiclassing/prestige.
hiiamtom wrote: christos gurd wrote: I would also make itterives based on class rather than bonus so accuracy is all it affects. ^^This
Spell-less get 1 additional attack every 5 levels, d10/12 every 6, d8 every 8, d6 every 10. Make it fractional rounded down for multiclassing/prestige. 5th edition is a slippery slope.
showzilla wrote: My Self wrote: That sounds somewhat... unnecessary. Skill Focus will get you a ridiculous to-hit modifier, and some skill boosters will make it practically impossible to fail to hit. Also, this still means that 1/2 BAB classes will have full BAB for one weapon group, which is a bit broken. Consider that a shapechanging wizard who maxes out their natural weapons group will have a much better hit bonus than a barbarian of the same level. Also, this favors high-skill classes with no appreciable benefit for full-martial classes who are not terribly skilled.
It favors skill classes, nerfs martial classes, and greatly buffs low to mid BAB classes (wizard, cleric, etc.) who don't need buffing. I'd say the biggest winners from this are the Wizard, Arcanist, and Investigator. Biggest loser is definitely the Fighter, who doesn't have a lot of skills to throw around, and isn't very good at skill checks.
"also, as for martial classes not really having enough skill points to throw around, but I have a fix. Fast progression classes who expend one skill point into weapon skills may spread it to 3 weapons skills;medium progression can spread to 2 and slow progression is stuck at 1."
but yeah, this was just a random idea that kinda popped into my head and figured see how it sounds to the community. The only thing I play that ever actually uses more than two weapon groups is casters. Fighters need a melee and a ranged (I could almost see a melee, a reach, and a ranged, but it's never come into play for me or my table). Casters at most need rays, other spells, and one melee or ranged weapon. Rogues need daggers, or maybe a melee and a ranged depending on your mood.
Druids need natural attacks and a ranged, and maybe rays or a melee weapon depending on build.
The people who have more things to use, but could get better bab from this idea, tend to already get 2 groups base or have the skill points to spare anyways.
It almost balances a little, but not enough to prevent any class from having full bab in everything they need at about the same cost to everyone (or a bit higher in case of fighters).
If you want to play this rule at your tables, I understand. I'll never say "badwrongfun" to an idea. But I honestly feel you're looking at a much higher level of game rebuild than it sounds like. This will be a complex, messy change that isn't going to add as much as you think.
My Self wrote: hiiamtom wrote: christos gurd wrote: I would also make itterives based on class rather than bonus so accuracy is all it affects. ^^This
Spell-less get 1 additional attack every 5 levels, d10/12 every 6, d8 every 8, d6 every 10. Make it fractional rounded down for multiclassing/prestige. 5th edition is a slippery slope. Well the odd one out is 3.X era games, so I don't know what to tell you.
The system used by Rolemaster does exactly this, but you would have to completely rebuild the Pathfinder rules to implement it.
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