Glass Cannons in PFS

[TwilightKnight]

nosig wrote:

sounds like this bit on multiple Cloodkills should go to the Rules board

Like many other forum participants, I refuse to go into the rules forums. If *you* think there are arguments in this message-board, you ain't seen nothin' until you've spent time in there. In my experience, the vast majority of the time the posters are even less open to opposing opinions and even more eager to at minimum dismiss yours or at worst be outright rude and indignant. And in the end, rarely does a discussion end much differently than it started, with two (occasionally more) opposing sides refusing to accept the legitimacy of the other's position and no Paizo designer comments anywhere to be seen. No thank you. Enter at your own risk.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Zach Davis wrote:

As someone else watching the discussion I have to say that I find Bob's argument more compelling. He presented a reason why the situation might be interpreted one way, and you refuted his point with reasons why it should be ruled another way. Since then he made a couple more points, and clarified that this is just an opinion and YMMV. You have basically just said I'm right you're wrong a number of times in response to his posts. This is just my view of the discussion, but I'm currently thinking that making a ruling based on the poison rules makes more sense.

1. Cloudkill conjures a physical cloud of poisonous fumes.
2. The effects are not mitigated by SR as they would if the damage were spell based.
3. The effects ARE mitigated by a Fort save(and in my opinion poison immunity/bonuses vs. poison).

All of this leads me to believe that in this case the rules regarding poisons are the most relevant. 1 save but with an increased DC based on the number of instances to which you are exposed.

That said table variation is something to be avoided if possible in PFS, and I love to see a ruling from the developers.

So, if you cast Delay Poison, you can basically ignore Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill (since the durations of these spells will end before the duration of Delay Poison)? I hadn't thought it working like that.

The problem with Cloudkill's DC increasing is that you are never actually given the Poisoned condition by Cloudkill. The poison gets in your system, you take your damage, and you (hopefully) get on with your life. The poison rules are written to account for making a save against a when you currently have a poison in your system (and are suffering secondary effects). It basically runs its course each round.

"Making your initial saving throw against a poison means stacking does not occur—the poison did not affect you and any later doses are treated independently. Likewise, if a poison has been cured or run its course (by you either making the saves or outlasting the poison's duration), stacking does not occur."

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/poisons.html#mult iple-doses-of-poison

But, yeah. Derail.

[Zach Davis]

Sure? Sounds like it. It's kind of crazy, but gust of wind is a second level spell, and could be used to disperse the cloud.

[Andrew Christian]

Lorewalker wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

same basic stuff

FWIW, my comment was directed at a new participant in the discussion. I am not going to convince you nor you me. You hitting me over the head with the same hammer for a third time is not gonna change my opinion that while I agree your interpretation has merit, it is not the only one.

Saying the word interpretation does not make an argument valid. Yours was fundamentally flawed. I pointed it out. You continued to make the argument, I more explicitly outlined the flaw. You are not the only one reading.

So yes, I do not intend to change your mind. It is quite often that, mid-disagreement, either arguing party will not change their minds. But those who listen can, and later after thought the original parties may as well.

This also applies to you Lorewalker.

[TwilightKnight]

Lengthy Derail:

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

So, if you cast Delay Poison, you can basically ignore Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill (since the durations of these spells will end before the duration of Delay Poison)? I hadn't thought it working like that.

The problem with Cloudkill's DC increasing is that you are never actually given the Poisoned condition by Cloudkill. The poison gets in your system, you take your damage, and you (hopefully) get on with your life. The poison rules are written to account for making a save against a when you currently have a poison in your system (and are suffering secondary effects). It basically runs its course each round.

Since (arguably) the rules are unclear on which effect would take precedence (spell vs. poison) it is difficult to saw what happens when you use delay poison. some say you delay the spell effect. In this case, when the delay ends, you are no longer under the effects of the spell and therefore make no saves and take no damage. However, others rule that you delay the result of the effects. Meaning you make the saves as normal and only the impact of the failed save, that being you are poisoned take Con damage, is delayed. In the latter, all your Con damage is held in check until the delay effect ends at which point, BAM, you are hit with all the poison effects, aka Con damage. Assuming of course that you do not neutralize the poison before the delay ends. And even that is questionable since the poison itself is no longer affecting you so the neutralize should not have any effect. So, as you can see, how magical effects interact with poison effects can be very difficult to adjudicate.

As far as accounting for having a poison in your system, remember that if you judge cloudkill as a poison effect then you do in fact have multiple doses affecting you each round. That would account for the increased DC. they are just essentially instantaneous poisons that are not affected by what you do last round or next round. As long as you remain in the cloud, you are effected each round with a non-durational poison. The quote about the save and duration are not specifically relevent because the poison from the cloudkill does not act like a normal poison with a clearly defined stat block. A successful save in this round does not render you immune to the effects of the poison in the next round even though it is from the same source.

Normally, you will not be affected by multiple poison effects simultaneously, at least not how you are with cloudkill. We are used to thinking of poison with respect to injury poisons like those used by poisonous creatures and rogue-types. They attack, inject you with a poison, you make a save, and then they attack again (if possible). If a second dose of poison is injected in the same round, the effects depend on whether or not you are already affected by it. If you make the initial save the first time, there is no poison coursing through your body to impact the second save.

Again, it becomes complicated when applying that mechanic to multiple inhalated poisons affecting you at the same time. since they stack, you don't get the chance to save vs. the first before the 2nd (or more) dose is in play. They all effect you at the same time. The high concentration of the poison is accounted for by the increased DC and extended duration. However, the magical nature of the source of the poison calls into question exactly how the poison will be modified to account for it.

The RAI are hard to determine midst all this overlap and the designers, so far, have been quiet on the subject despite it being a question that has existed for a number of years. Therefore, it is left up to individual GM to decide what makes most sense to them and rule it that way.

[kinevon]

My apologies, I didn't intend to derail the discussion into Cloudkill and multiple of them in an area.

Spoiler:

It was only 4 of them, IIRC, and assuming the GM followed the stated tactics for the encounter as written. 8 casters, half of them using Summon Monster, the other half using a different spell from their spells prepared list, with Cloudkill as one of the options.

Fairly limited area, each of the 4 clouds started as stated, moving as per the spell, and causing all sorts of issues, including concealment stuff.

Note that this was in Sub-Tier 12+ of a PFS scenario, and that this issue, although fewer Cloudkills could happen in some of the lower sub-tiers of this scenario.

I think most of us were affected by multiple through a mixture of our movement, to get to the casters, and the clouds' movement, as per the spell. It was ugly.

Also, if you have two Cloudkills, assuming that they cannot overlap at creation (questionable, by the way), and their movement moves them through some of the same squares at the same time, what happens? What if the casters are on opposite sides of an area, both cast Cloudkill, and that, at some point, the clouds pass through each other. Does that cause one of them to end, at that time? What if they are the same level caster?

Maybe just ignore this whole derail. But that is also why I prefer to GM at lower sub-tiers. GMing Krune, when-and-if I get around to it, will be an interesting experience...

[TwilightKnight]

Martin Weil wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I know the scenario you are referring to and yes, it was fairly nasty at high tier

Scenario Anecdote *SPOILERS*:

I've been lucky enough to run that one more than once in high tier 10-11 and 12+ and to be honest multiple cloudkill is really not a "best case" use of multiple spell-casters anyway. The area is large enough to allow the clouds to drift and with the wizards on opposing sides, all of them are at risk of getting overrun with the drifting effects. In 10-11, I preferred a coordinated attack of cloudkill followed by wall of stone. Because of the nature of the encounter, I can usually get at least four members of the party contained which is the whole point. The summoned creatures stand guard around the cylinder of stone waiting for someone to break out or to attack the ones missed by the wall.

At 12+, it gets even worse for the PCs with four more casters adding black tentacles, followed by confusion or stinking cloud before the former two are cast. the potential of being confused, nauseated, and grappled while losing Con each round is pretty nasty. I have yet to kill a PC with it, but I certainly have their attention when it drops. I've also seen a summon swarm used instead of the confusion, but the HP damage is minimal at that level and most casters can make the concentration check against the distraction effect. Every time I've seen this tactic used, the party simply used dim door or some other type of teleportation effect to escape the wall of stone

[Alex McGuire]

Since the poison damage is instantaneous multiple cloudkills can never hit you while you are in the duration of the poison. This means that the DCs never increase other than by con loss making it harder to save down the road.