As a DM, I want my games to be chocked full of as much content and good, usable material as possible.
Often when 3PP are concerned, it usually comes down to sifting though filth, but DSP has long since been established as the diamonds you find in the.... well I could finish the metaphor but Paizo's language filter wouldn't let you read it.
I'm finally to a point where I basically have a grasp on Psionics, since I've been incorporating them for a while, and now I want to learn Path of War. But I have no idea where to start, I know most of the stuff is on d20PFSRD, but I think diving right into the classes might overwhelm my brain by trying to learn how classes deal with a subsystem, without learning the subsystem.
Is there a crash course in initiating somewhere?
I've asked our Path of War guys if they can help you out here. :)
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I have some advice on starting up initiating, but I will be heading to class soon. I did make a thread about DMing tips for PoW a while back, so hopefully this can provide some help till I can write up advice more specific to your questions.
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In my estimation, the best way to start incorporating Path of War into your game is to start with the "Systems and Use" chapter of Path of War.
Once you get the basic idea of the system, you can move onto the classes/feats/stances/maneuvers.
For ease of understanding, stances can best be described as being similar to the forms used by Style Feats, and maneuvers are analagous to spells for spellcasting classes.
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As a DM, I want my games to be chocked full of as much content and good, usable material as possible.
Often when 3PP are concerned, it usually comes down to sifting though filth, but DSP has long since been established as the diamonds you find in the.... well I could finish the metaphor but Paizo's language filter wouldn't let you read it.
I'm finally to a point where I basically have a grasp on Psionics, since I've been incorporating them for a while, and now I want to learn Path of War. But I have no idea where to start, I know most of the stuff is on d20PFSRD, but I think diving right into the classes might overwhelm my brain by trying to learn how classes deal with a subsystem, without learning the subsystem.
Is there a crash course in initiating somewhere?
Hi. I happen to be one of those "Path of War guys" that Jeremy mentioned. Initiating is actually fairly simple, but I'll try to break it down for you. The best place to start though would be here in the Systems and Use section on the PFSRD (it's also in the book).
In any case, the big thing about the subsystem (arguably the whole thing) is the maneuvers. Maneuvers are categorized similarly to spells, in that they have 9 levels that you gain access to as your character level and Initiator Level (like caster level for spells) increases. Also similar to spells, maneuvers are organized into specialized, thematic lists called Disciplines. Think of these like a Martial Art Style (though you're not limited to only using maneuvers from one discipline, you can mix and match disciplines based on your class)
Maneuvers come in 4 different types: Boosts, Counters, Stances and Strikes.
Boost- Boosts are swift actions, and do pretty much what it sounds like. They provide a temporary increase in power or add an additional effect to an attack, movement or some of your characters stats, all depending on the specific boost in question.
Counters- Counters are immediate actions and primarily allow you to negate, avoid or otherwise react to attacks made against your character. Typically they involve things like using a skill check in place of your AC or a Saving Throw, counterattacking an enemy that hit you, or covering for an ally so that they can avoid an attack, but their abilities are not limited to just that.
Stances- Stances are persistent effects that provide bonuses, additional movement, new attacks, extra defenses or other effects to your character. You can (usually) only have one stance active at a time, and they cost a swift action to activate. Your stance remains active until you lose consciousness or choose to leave it. Stances are special, and are only "sort of" maneuvers, generally when something says it applies to a maneuver, stances are not included in this.
Strikes- Strikes are standard or full round actions that involve an attack of some sort. They typically add extra damage dice, rider effects and occasionally movement components to what would otherwise be a bog standard attack or full attack.
When you play an initiator, there are a few things you need to know regarding your maneuvers:
The first is your Initiation Modifier, which is the (usually mental) ability score that determines the saving throws and sometimes additional effects of your maneuvers. Each class and archetype that uses maneuvers should explicitly state what their initiation modifier is in the Maneuvers Readied section of the class's abilities.
The second thing you need to know is your Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied and Stances. At each level, in your class's table, it will tell you the total number of maneuvers you know (not counting stances), how many of those maneuvers you are allowed to ready, and how many stances you know.
Your Maneuvers Known tells you how many maneuvers your character... knows (kind of self explanatory) which can be chosen from any of the disciplines available to your class. Of those known manuevers, you can ready only a certain number of them. Your Readied Maneuvers are the maneuvers that you can actually use in combat, the rest of them are unavailable.
Each readied maneuver you have can only be used in an encounter once. Used maneuvers are called expended. Each class has the ability to recover their expended maneuvers either by spending a standard action to recover a single expended maneuver, or by using their class's special maneuver recovery ability (how this works is explained in the class's maneuvers readied section). Once a maneuver is recovered, you can go ahead and use it again, and each time you begin a new encounter, you regain the use of all your readied maneuvers.
What this means is that Path of War classes don't really run out of steam. They can keep going for a long time, provided they can afford to rest a bit between encounters.
Lastly, I'll link you to my Path of War Guides. They're a bit out of date, but should serve their purpose well enough to introduce you to the classes.
maneuvers are analagous to spells for spellcasting classes.
Eh. They are initiators' analogue of spells, but this statement leaves much to be desired as an introduction.
Like spells, maneuvers are discrete effects that you have to learn before you can use them, have limits on how often they can be used, and are broken down into 9 levels that become available as you gain more class levels.
But that is as far as the similarity goes; the things they do and the way they are used are very different from spells. Especially at low levels, many maneuvers' effects are much closer to those of combat feats.
And the ready/expend/recover mechanic gives initiators very different incentives than spellcasters. Spellcasters have carefully mete out their spells, because they only get one set each day. Every cast has to be weighed against the possibility of needing the spell later. Initiators do not have any reason to do that with their maneuvers, and that makes them play very differently. Any maneuver they use is going to be available again in a couple of rounds, so there is no point in “saving” it.
Instead, the ready/expend/recover system makes them think much more about combos and opportunities: which boost to use with which maneuver? Who to use a given maneuver on? Because initiators want to initiate all the time, as much as they can, as fast as they can, as hard as they can.
And this goes back to their effects being more like feats: maneuvers are not rewriting reality like spells are. They are much more limited effects. They're supposed to be used early and often. The ready/expend/recover system isn't about attrition, as spells per day are. An initiator's stamina is limited by HP, just like any other warrior's, not by his maneuvers.
Instead, maneuvers are about mixing it up. You get more maneuvers than you get feats, but you have to use a variety of them instead of just focusing on one thing. This helps initiators have more options available, while preventing too much specialization.
As a DM, I want my games to be chocked full of as much content and good, usable material as possible.
Often when 3PP are concerned, it usually comes down to sifting though filth, but DSP has long since been established as the diamonds you find in the.... well I could finish the metaphor but Paizo's language filter wouldn't let you read it.
I'm finally to a point where I basically have a grasp on Psionics, since I've been incorporating them for a while, and now I want to learn Path of War. But I have no idea where to start, I know most of the stuff is on d20PFSRD, but I think diving right into the classes might overwhelm my brain by trying to learn how classes deal with a subsystem, without learning the subsystem.
Is there a crash course in initiating somewhere?
Hi. I happen to be one of those "Path of War guys" that Jeremy mentioned. Initiating is actually fairly simple, but I'll try to break it down for you. The best place to start though would be here in the Systems and Use section on the PFSRD (it's also in the book).
In any case, the big thing about the subsystem (arguably the whole thing) is the maneuvers. Maneuvers are categorized similarly to spells, in that they have 9 levels that you gain access to as your character level and Initiator Level (like caster level for spells) increases. Also similar to spells, maneuvers are organized into specialized, thematic lists called Disciplines. Think of these like a Martial Art Style (though you're not limited to only using maneuvers from one discipline, you can mix and match disciplines based on your class)
Maneuvers come in 4 different types: Boosts, Counters, Stances and Strikes.
Boost- Boosts are swift actions, and do pretty much what it sounds like. They provide a temporary increase in power or add an additional effect to an attack, movement or some of your characters stats, all depending on the specific boost in question....
This post was super useful, thank you!
dot
It's also helpful to note that "per encounter" in Path of War is defined as "The current combat, and up to a minute afterwards".
After a minute with no combat has passed, all expended Maneuvers are restored to Readied status.
maneuvers are analagous to spells for spellcasting classes.Eh. They are initiators' analogue of spells, but this statement leaves much to be desired as an introduction.
Like spells, maneuvers are discrete effects that you have to learn before you can use them, have limits on how often they can be used, and are broken down into 9 levels that become available as you gain more class levels.
But that is as far as the similarity goes; the things they do and the way they are used are very different from spells. Especially at low levels, many maneuvers' effects are much closer to those of combat feats.
And the ready/expend/recover mechanic gives initiators very different incentives than spellcasters. Spellcasters have carefully mete out their spells, because they only get one set each day. Every cast has to be weighed against the possibility of needing the spell later. Initiators do not have any reason to do that with their maneuvers, and that makes them play very differently. Any maneuver they use is going to be available again in a couple of rounds, so there is no point in “saving” it.
Instead, the ready/expend/recover system makes them think much more about combos and opportunities: which boost to use with which maneuver? Who to use a given maneuver on? Because initiators want to initiate all the time, as much as they can, as fast as they can, as hard as they can.
And this goes back to their effects being more like feats: maneuvers are not rewriting reality like spells are. They are much more limited effects. They're supposed to be used early and often. The ready/expend/recover system isn't about attrition, as spells per day are. An initiator's stamina is limited by HP, just like any other warrior's, not by his maneuvers.
Instead, maneuvers are about mixing it up. You get more maneuvers than you get feats, but you have to use a variety of them instead of just focusing on one thing. This helps initiators have more options available, while preventing too...
I said they were analogous, not exactly the same.
I said they were analogous, not exactly the same.
Which is why I repeated your observation, and only commented that more detail is warranted because that observation can give the wrong impression. I see a lot of people who just don't get Path of War because their expectations of maneuvers are informed too much by their intuition that they're somehow like spells. They are somewhat so but they are also very different in very important ways.
I said they were analogous, not exactly the same.Which is why I repeated your observation, and only commented that more detail is warranted because that observation can give the wrong impression. I see a lot of people who just don't get Path of War because their expectations of maneuvers are informed too much by their intuition that they're somehow like spells. They are somewhat so but they are also very different in very important ways.
Ah, Ok, my interpretation of the tone of your post, led me down an errant path. Agreed.
Hardcover and PDF only currently I believe (PDF only for the WIP PoW: Expanded, hardcover to come).
Interesting thread! I didn't know much at all about Path of War before, but it sounds like I might need to check it out ...
Is it available in hardcover or is it only a softcover release?
Currently Path of War is just softcover. I believe, but don't quote me, that Expanded will also only be softcover for the moment - that one's on the verge of finally being published, if we can get it these last few inches out of the fiery pits of Layout Hell.