Fire Kineticist, Does Burning Infusion persist after death?


Rules Questions


Title pretty much.

I've been playing a Pyrokineticist, and came with a little ambiguity in the rules.

Since for a fire elemental kineticist, it is useful to have multiple fire sources around available for abilities such as Smokestorm which can only be initiated from a fire source, it became an issue to figure out what is considered a fire source.

As a player i thought if Burning infusion sets an opponent on fire, that opponent then becomes a fire source for so long as the fire isn't extinguished, but the issue started when that burning opponent died.

I had assumed, that, as with all things that die from burning... you know.. Keep burning afterwards, and could be used as a new source of fire.
But my DM thought that because the infusion doesn't state how long the fire lasts, that the Burning would disappear immediately on the opponent's death.

That ruling would therefore force me to either only be able to use smokestorm on a burning opponent that is still alive, or to 1: Find or carry things that catch easily on fire and dispose of it somewhere convenient, 2: use basic pyrokinesis and spend a standard to cast Spark. 3: Wait for my next turn before using Smokestorm.

Sorry if it's been discussed in the kineticist playtest, but.. 4750 posts to comb through...


Quote:
But my DM thought that because the infusion doesn't state how long the fire lasts, that the Burning would disappear immediately on the opponent's death.

There is no text present in the game that suggests the instantaneous effect of the burning infusion would end if the kineticist dies.


Milo v3 wrote:
Quote:
But my DM thought that because the infusion doesn't state how long the fire lasts, that the Burning would disappear immediately on the opponent's death.
There is no text present in the game that suggests the instantaneous effect of the burning infusion would end if the kineticist dies.

Not the kineticist. That one is still well up and alive. He's talking about the target that got attacked with a flame blast + Burning infusion, failed it's save, started taking fire damage every turn (IE: set on fire), and then that victim that is on fire, dies, suddenly it's no longer on fire.

Sovereign Court

CathMonster wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Quote:
But my DM thought that because the infusion doesn't state how long the fire lasts, that the Burning would disappear immediately on the opponent's death.
There is no text present in the game that suggests the instantaneous effect of the burning infusion would end if the kineticist dies.
Not the kineticist. That one is still well up and alive. He's talking about the target that got attacked with a flame blast + Burning infusion, failed it's save, started taking fire damage every turn (IE: set on fire), and then that victim that is on fire, dies, suddenly it's no longer on fire.

The person changing from alive to dead does not change the target of the infusion being that person. Therefore, the corpse continues to take fire damage every round, and if that's not "on fire" I don't know what is :P


I am in agreement that the fire would not suddenly stop burning simply because the target died. The infusion is not sentient, nor intelligent and therefore would have no way to determine whether its fuel source is alive or dead...


Is there a way to reduce burn cost for composite blast?


Dragon78 wrote:
Is there a way to reduce burn cost for composite blast?

Two ways; Composite Specialization and Gather Power/Supercharge.


Gather power/supercharge says you can reduce the cost of infusions, it doesn't say anything about composite blasts.

You have to be 16th level for composite specialization.


Dragon78 wrote:

Gather power/supercharge says you can reduce the cost of infusions, it doesn't say anything about composite blasts.

You have to be 16th level for composite specialization.

"Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point."

Composite blasts are blast wild talents. Infusions and metakinesis merely modify the blasts. Gather power works with composite blasts.


While on topic, a followup question, since there seems to be some grey area in the wording of some of those abilities.

Burning infusion doesn't state a duration for it, so far I've been going with the assumption that it's permanent until either someone puts it out, or the corpse is in ashes (Which after doing some reading, a human body can burn for up to 7 hours assuming it's wearing clothes)

But the actual question comes from Searing Flames utility talent.

It says it lasts for half the kineticist's level, but... also it says it stacks. So i'm unsure, does it keep stacking and re-applying itself every round, therefore refreshing it's duration and only persisting for X rounds after the burning is put out, or does that mean that it will only stack X times and wear off?
The later makes little sense considering that the burning infusion has no duration limit.

I know read as intended, i think the former makes sense, but.. The issue is it's unclear.

Shadow Lodge

I think each instance of fire resistance reduction has its own value and duration, and if two instances are active at the same time, their reduction values stack. Like so:

Level 6 kineticist with Burning Infusion & Searing Flame. Opponent has fire resist 20.

Round 1: Burning infusion deals 5 points. Fire Resist -5 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 15.

Round 2: Burning infusion deals 3 points. Fire Resist -3 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 12

Round 3: Burning infusion deals 6 points. Fire Resist -6 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 6.

Round 4: Burning infusion deals 1 point, then extinguished. Fire Resist -1 for 3 rounds. Round 1 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 10

Round 5: Round 2 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 13

Round 6: Round 3 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 19

Round 7: Round 4 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 20.

This is quite complicated to keep track of, though.


Weirdo wrote:

I think each instance of fire resistance reduction has its own value and duration, and if two instances are active at the same time, their reduction values stack. Like so:

Level 6 kineticist with Burning Infusion & Searing Flame. Opponent has fire resist 20.

Round 1: Burning infusion deals 5 points. Fire Resist -5 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 15.

Round 2: Burning infusion deals 3 points. Fire Resist -3 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 12

Round 3: Burning infusion deals 6 points. Fire Resist -6 for 3 rounds. Current Fire Resist: 6.

Round 4: Burning infusion deals 1 point, then extinguished. Fire Resist -1 for 3 rounds. Round 1 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 10

Round 5: Round 2 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 13

Round 6: Round 3 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 19

Round 7: Round 4 Searing Infusion wears off. Fire Resist: 20.

This is quite complicated to keep track of, though.

... That is bonkers level type of complicated. Complicated to the point where i'd rather homerule it or disreguard that ability all together (even though it's pretty useful, even mandatory for a fire-only kineticist)

It can't possibly work that way.

Shadow Lodge

Sacred Geometry says that it's absolutely possible to publish an ability that is impractically complicated.

The reason I think the rules actually are written that way is the use of the phrase "these decreases stack," (separate, plural decreases) and the lack of text indicating that the duration of these decreases are in any way related to other decreases. If they did expire at the same time, it should read either "These decreases stack, and each new decrease resets the duration of the overall effect" or "These decreases stack, but all decreases end when the initial duration expires." Since they don't say this, the durations aren't affected by other decreases, meaning they all have their own durations and expire at different times.

I personally would run each new instance as extending the whole duration since that seems more practical and balanced. It is quite possibly what was intended for the ability. Might be useful to ask Mark Seifter for clarification as the kineticist guy.


I can see both sides of Weirdo's interpretation; however, I feel that it's more likely that each new "tack" stack and use the last duration.

Also, Protoman has the right of it in regards to Gather Power/Supercharge. It covers the total cost of a blast to include infusions, metakinesis, and composite blasts. So dragon78, here's an example if you're still having some issues.

A 5th level kineticist has Infusion Specialization 1 and decides to use their fire blast infused with Kinetic Blade (1 Burn), Burning Infusion (1 Burn), and Empower metakinesis (1 Burn) for a total of 3 Burn. Infusion Specialization immediately removed 1 Burn from the cost. Now you can Gather Power as a Move Action to remove 1 more Burn making a total Burn cost of 1. Or you can GP as a Full-Round Action and remove 2 more Burn making a total Burn cost of 0. Hopefully that helps you!

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