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By the way, was that one intended to work exactly like the Paladin ability? Usually monsters with a Smite ability do not get their Charisma modifier on attack rolls and AC.The monster smite from the bestiary works the same as the paladin ability. The reason you don't typically see an attack bonus is because most smite comes from templates added to animals and they rarely have a positive Cha
It does get cha to attack but is not identical to paladin smite.
Special Attacks The creature may smite evil 1/day as a swift action (it adds its Cha bonus to attack rolls, and a damage bonus equal to its HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
So you get cha to hit, and level to damage, but no AC bonus and no DR bypassing and no double on certain targets.
Contributor
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Bear in mind, the mimic is a variant half-fiend, which has this smite ability:
Smite Good (Su): Once per day, as a swift action, the half-fiend can smite good as the smite evil ability of a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice, except affecting a good target. The smite persists until the target is dead or the half-fiend rests.
You're correct about the lesser templates, though. ^_^
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Bear in mind, the mimic is a variant half-fiend, which has this smite ability:
Smite Good (Su): Once per day, as a swift action, the half-fiend can smite good as the smite evil ability of a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice, except affecting a good target. The smite persists until the target is dead or the half-fiend rests.You're correct about the lesser templates, though. ^_^
CORRECT! Gold star for you, today.
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Contributor
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Thank you! ^_^
(From a pedantic point of view, since it functions "as the smite evil ability of a paladin"... by strict RAW, it only doubles against evil dragons and such. You could argue that the text switches it to good dragons et al, or assume that it gets the antipaladin version instead. The latter, while 100% logical, is a bit harder to justify as strict RAW.)
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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So, I can't wait to GM Valais again, and have already signed up for a con in May to do so. (Sadly, I can't play or GM for a few more weeks due to real life)
In the mean time, I'm making art for Valais! So far, I've done the "easy" part with the body - all the seams are underneath the clothes.
Next up is the hard part - doing the face. Will probably end up as 3 different renders merged together in photoshop, which I haven't tried before.
For those curious about how she's put together, here she is in a two-piece swimsuit.
This looks terrible
I will hopefully post the final version in a few days.
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I do actually wonder what her arrangement of body parts is supposed to be. I have taken the view that she has two kalavakus arms (which turned out to be correct, at least in that Laktheris lost both arms) and that most of the rest of her was babau on the outside with the only visible human part remaining being the small chunk of her face in her official art. In my head, Thurl only left that one piece of humanity on her skull because it helped him remember her amongst his other subjects, as well as a cruel reminder of what she once looked like as a punishment for her snooping on him for the Decemvirate.
I am running this scenario in a week, and I'm determined to do it justice, so I've been trying to fill-in the blanks about her as much as possible to inform my playing of her. A lot of it is just refreshing myself, as I love running her too :)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I remember that it said somewhere that the legs were mis-matched, so I decided to mis-match the arms too. They both still have claws. From the official Valais portrait, it looks like at least her right shoulder is Babau, so I think it likely the whole arm is. Complicated that Kahtheris is depected with two Kalavakus legs though, so maybe she DOES have 2 babau legs. (Would certainly make getting dressed easier). Acid-proof clothing is still required though.
There's also the question of how many of the changes are more than "skin deep" - I think limbs were replaced entirely, as was the mouth, but some parts of the head and torso may only be skin grafts.
I think when Laktheris left, he had Valais left arm and no right arm, then put the glabro arm on. Then got the extra troll. Eventually he decided to upgrade the left arm to his newest acquisition, though there may be more intermediates we don't see.
Here's my first go at the face.
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Having been the Paladin at Bob's table... Holy hell, unless you're lucky that mimic fight is easily the end of a few characters. Our alchemist/trap finder was down to 3 health by the time he could act, and if it wasn't for some amusing character reasons for having some serious alcohol and a handy haversack on hand, he probably would have been dropped without any chance to survive the following round. I managed to first-attack smite/crit it and hit it with my secondary for a point shy of 100 damage to barely drop it. I couldn't stop thinking about how many team builds would run out of weapons before they could realistically do enough damage.
I love a tough fight and I absolutely loved everything about this scenario. One of my favorites to date, but daaaamn. That fight goes down as the most deadly encounter I've ever come across for its likelihood to incapacitate a good chunk of the party and outright kill one PC before they can even start doing damage. Props on legit making a couple players characters now believe my Gaston/Captain Hammer/Zapp Branigan themed Paladin is the next best thing to a living god.
That's a dangerous thing buddy.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Here's a more polished face. Now to put it all together...
Andrew, any input on what parts officially go where on Valais?
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Oh, and not to appear like too much of a softy: on a confirmed grapple using Power Attack and Smite on a good outsider (aasimar, tiefling, etc) the thing is dishing out 4d6+76 damage the first round and only4d6+65 each additional round, or to a good non-outsider.By the way, pretty sure that's not correct. Smite Good only does double damage against outsiders with the good subtype (which PCs don't have).
Actually, referencing the antipaladin ability, the cleric in my game might have been in line for double damage on the first hit as well thanks to the other clauses of what gets doubled (good dragon or good creature with levels of cleric or paladin).
Oh. My mistake! You are correct. I forgot that the paladin ability calls out subtype. Good catch.
As a half-fiend, the door is subject to demon-bane weapons, such as a couple of arrows you may have been handed recently.
When I played this, we had no archers. My Thunder and Fang Hunter w/ a Moose got both weapons and his Moose stuck to the door. Nobody had a bow, so he used one of the arrows as a one shot bane melee attack.
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How should the knowledge check to identify the door work? I believe our GM ran it as a rare creature, so 15+CR, which put the DC at 22, I think. I haven't bought the scenario yet. Would a lower DC Knowledge: Dungeoneering check identify the mimic part of it and not the fiendish part? Or is it an all or nothing check? That's what tripped us up more than anything. I think our Witch got a 21, so we didn't know what it was or that the Bane arrow would have worked on it. We did at least figure out it probably wasn't a construct or undead when the witch's Evil Eye worked on it.
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Running this in couple of days, kinda scared of the mimic after reading this thread. (Though they're going to have a archer-inquisitor, so it might be okay).
Regarding skill DCs: I usually make two separate checks for stuff like fiendish template/half-fiend, one for the base creature and one for the template/whatever extra. In this case dungeoneering and planes. They'd know that it is a kinda weird mimic, a half-fiend something, or actually a half-fiend mimic based on which ones they succeed at. Not sure if this is the proper way, but one one has complained about it thus far, so it seems to be working at least.
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It does get cha to attack but is not identical to paladin smite.
NOTE...
Special Attacks smite good (or evil*) 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against good (or evil*) foes; smite persists until target is dead or the fiendish (or celestial*) creature rests).
So, with regards to "regular" smite attacks like from a fiendish (or celestial) template, I agree. The rules for it are clearly spelled out and the paladin's ability is not specially referenced.
However...
Smite Good (Su): Once per day as a swift action it can smite good as the smite evil ability of a paladin of its Hit Dice, except affecting a good target. The smite persists until the target is dead or the half-fiend rests.
In the case of the half-fiendish template, it grants the full paladin class ability. So it is eligible for the deflection bonus, double damage bonus, ignore DR bonus, etc.
For reference...
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
If this target is good, the antipaladin adds his Charisma bonus (if any) on his attack rolls and adds his antipaladin level on all damage rolls made against the target of his smite. If the target of smite good is an outsider with the good subtype, a good-aligned dragon, or a good creature with levels of cleric or paladin, the bonus to damage on the f irst successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the antipaladin possesses.
The half-fiend's smite ability references the paladin smite ability just reverses the affect for good alignments. This of course came out before the APG which introduced the anti-paladin. Its smite ability is arguably the more applicable reference. It can be argued that the anti-paladin's ability more clearly defines how to apply the paladin's smite to an evil creature with smite good.
The original rules would only allow smite good to affect good outsiders with the good subtype and good-aligned dragons. You are not going to find good-aligned undead, so smite good would have less utility than smite evil. Whether or not you use that as a justification to extrapolate, it can be argued that the more recent publication (APG) clarifies how smite good functions. This would be important because that version goes on to include "good creature with levels of cleric or paladin" which could potentially affect the PCs and do double damage to them. Fortunately, aasimar are not naturally good subtype so unless they are a good cleric or a paladin, they are no more susceptible to smite good than any other character.
Of course this is merely theory-crafting so YMMV and expect table variation.
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How should the knowledge check to identify the door work?
Regarding skill DCs: I usually make two separate checks for stuff like fiendish template/half-fiend, one for the base creature and one for the template/whatever extra.
The rules for knowledge checks and creature identification are bit ambiguous and can be challenging to adjudicate. Technically speaking, a human with 20 class levels (CR20), would probably require a DC25 knowledge check to identify. The question is why? Their humanity has not changed due to adding class levels. It makes more sense thematically to say its still a DC5 (common monster) to identify them, worst case DC10.
The mimic is a bit different since it is actually, physically changed by the fiendish template. It is reasonable to think it could be mistaken for another creature entirely perhaps some type of demon. It is also reasonable to think that it still retains enough of its original form to allow, as you said, two different checks. One to ID the mimic and another to ID the template. IMO, the later makes both more sense and probably better rewards a player who has invested limited resources into the requisite knowledge skills to utilize them. After all, the game is about PCs DOING THINGS, not failing.
An additional issue to remember is that until the PCs see through the disguise (unlikely due to the extremely high skill modifier) or interact with it, as far as you're concerned, its a door. No different than any other door, except for the "puzzle" it contains. So, identifying it would have to wait until it is "revealed." Not a great prospect for the one doing the revealing.
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An additional issue to remember is that until the PCs see through the disguise (unlikely due to the extremely high skill modifier) or interact with it, as far as you're concerned, its a door. No different than any other door, except for the "puzzle" it contains. So, identifying it would have to wait until it is "revealed." Not a great prospect for the one doing the revealing.
It had been revealed before we made the check. Fortunately, I was using Mage Hand to try to turn the dials from 15 feet away, so I didn't get murdered in the surprise round. It was a fun fight. I can say that, because it went after the Paladin and not me.
I look forward to reading through this one. I might try to make a series of running Night March, Valley of the Veiled Flame, Traiter's Lodge, and this. That's if I can find a group that can make that work from a level standpoint.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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An additional issue to remember is that until the PCs see through the disguise (unlikely due to the extremely high skill modifier) or interact with it, as far as you're concerned, its a door. No different than any other door, except for the "puzzle" it contains. So, identifying it would have to wait until it is "revealed." Not a great prospect for the one doing the revealing.It had been revealed before we made the check. Fortunately, I was using Mage Hand to try to turn the dials from 15 feet away, so I didn't get murdered in the surprise round. It was a fun fight. I can say that, because it went after the Paladin and not me.
I look forward to reading through this one. I might try to make a series of running Night March, Valley of the Veiled Flame, Traiter's Lodge, and this. That's if I can find a group that can make that work from a level standpoint.
The much trickier part is scheduling Siege of the Diamond City before Traitor's Lodge.
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How should the knowledge check to identify the door work?Regarding skill DCs: I usually make two separate checks for stuff like fiendish template/half-fiend, one for the base creature and one for the template/whatever extra.The rules for knowledge checks and creature identification are bit ambiguous and can be challenging to adjudicate. Technically speaking, a human with 20 class levels (CR20), would probably require a DC25 knowledge check to identify. The question is why? Their humanity has not changed due to adding class levels. It makes more sense thematically to say its still a DC5 (common monster) to identify them, worst case DC10.
The mimic is a bit different since it is actually, physically changed by the fiendish template. It is reasonable to think it could be mistaken for another creature entirely perhaps some type of demon. It is also reasonable to think that it still retains enough of its original form to allow, as you said, two different checks. One to ID the mimic and another to ID the template. IMO, the later makes both more sense and probably better rewards a player who has invested limited resources into the requisite knowledge skills to utilize them. After all, the game is about PCs DOING THINGS, not failing.
An additional issue to remember is that until the PCs see through the disguise (unlikely due to the extremely high skill modifier) or interact with it, as far as you're concerned, its a door. No different than any other door, except for the "puzzle" it contains. So, identifying it would have to wait until it is "revealed." Not a great prospect for the one doing the revealing.
For this reason my personal preference is the two-check method. It is more rewarding for knowledgeable characters and can make it easier for them to figure out how to deal with this sudden door-turned-monster.
At my tables, it's:
- DC 14 Knowledge (dungeoneering) check to identify the mimic, as they're a fairly common creature in the game world, but I base that information off a default mimic (adhesive, mimic object, etc).
- DC 12 Knowledge (planes) check to identify the half-fiend template, as it is a common template (especially in the Worldwound).
YMMV
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Ran it today. That mimic fight is ugly as sin... I almost one-shotted someone, but for shield other.
Everyone had lots of fun, though. ^_^
Ran it this weekened with 3 pre-gens and a character based on a pregen:
AmiriMavaro (occultist)
Kyra
Saeoni (Seoni but with a level-dip of gunslinger; nicknamed Neo-ni)
As soon as they saw it, Amiri wanted to smash the door in. After discussing with the table, they decided she would try and just push the doors open. The player made a gesture of pushing with two hands, palms open...
The fight started with Amiri completely stuck, both hands, to the mimic. They all survived, but only because other PCs kept getting in range and the starving mimic would attack them to get as many creatures stuck as possible. At the end of the fight they all had very low HP and were all stuck to the door.
Good times.
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Here's a more polished face. Now to put it all together...
Andrew, any input on what parts officially go where on Valais?
Really awesome! This is exciting to see.
As for which parts are where on Valais, I defer to her creator: Thurston Hillman.
(I can do more research at home this evening, for right now I don't have access to Traitor's Lodge, which includes her original appearance).
Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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SUMMONED!!!!
Beyond some original "let's staple her together from X/Y/Z" for the art call, there wasn't as much of a specific background for all the pieces. In fact, this scenario represents the first exploration of what makes up Valais.
I have some theories on where the remainder would fit in... as well as some far more awful things I want to do with this plot line, but I'll hold onto that, in case I can trick John into letting me do it.
But seriously, Andrew did an amazing job continuing this storyline. When John mentioned that he'd be following up, I was quite content with passing on the Valais torch to someone that talented!
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Leiden
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As soon as they saw it, Amiri wanted to smash the door in. After discussing with the table, they decided she would try and just push the doors open. The player made a gesture of pushing with two hands, palms open...
Ouch :p
I'm still liking this encounter, even over a week later.
The opening with Blasphemy when the paladin got stuck, raised a few eyebrows at the table. Kudos for the nastiness :)
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SUMMONED!!!!
Beyond some original "let's staple her together from X/Y/Z" for the art call, there wasn't as much of a specific background for all the pieces. In fact, this scenario represents the first exploration of what makes up Valais.
I have some theories on where the remainder would fit in... as well as some far more awful things I want to do with this plot line, but I'll hold onto that, in case I can trick John into letting me do it.
But seriously, Andrew did an amazing job continuing this storyline. When John mentioned that he'd be following up, I was quite content with passing on the Valais torch to someone that talented!
First, thank you so much for your kind words. I am both humbled and honored by your praise.
Ok, so... for what Valais is physically:
(Valais looks like) a patchwork of cream, red, and purple skin with asymmetrical horns and mismatched legs.
Her description in 7-17 is almost exactly the same. This is to keep consistency, and leave the details intentionally vague. "A patchwork of human and demon flesh" lets the player (and GM) create their own idea of the amalgamation standing before their characters, which can be far more frightening than: "She has two red claws, one cream leg and one blue leg."
In my mind, she has one kalavakus leg and one human leg attached to her mostly human torso. Because kalavakus legs are so much beefier and stocky than a standard human leg, this would give her a creepy gait: *STOMP* *step* *STOMP* *step*
Here is a friend and local player's interpretation of Valais, as expressed through a custom miniature he created for me. His name is Alex Wreschnig, and he's a fantastically talented miniature painter and an expert at creating mods. I think this is a work of art. If you'd like to see it in-person, it's the miniature I'll be using for her while running 7-17 at GenCon.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Hmm. I should probably have more human on her, but this at least hints at the partial torso and has the face. I'm definitely on board with the creepy gait. Unfortunately I rendered over the weekend, so the legs are purple & red.
In any case, here she is as the party finds her in 5-09. (Might switch out the babau foot). I'll do something for her in 7-17 next, but I haven't found a backdrop/landscape I like for the worldwound yet.
Overall
Closeup
Credits (And opportunity to rate it)
Here's the 'actors' that are part of her. The head on the left is slightly smaller than the main head, so any failed seems just see red. I needed two Kalavakuses because the leg mod was part of a package deal that didn't work with anything else.
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Hmm. I should probably have more human on her, but this at least hints at the partial torso and has the face. I'm definitely on board with the creepy gait. Unfortunately I rendered over the weekend, so the legs are purple & red.
In any case, here she is as the party finds her in 5-09. (Might switch out the babau foot). I'll do something for her in 7-17 next, but I haven't found a backdrop/landscape I like for the worldwound yet.
Overall
Closeup
Credits (And opportunity to rate it)Here's the 'actors' that are part of her. The head on the left is slightly smaller than the main head, so any failed seems just see red. I needed two Kalavakuses because the leg mod was part of a package deal that didn't work with anything else.
....WOW! This is FAN-FREAKING-TASTIC!!
I'm going to print these out and have them for my players. Amazing.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Hmm. I should probably have more human on her, but this at least hints at the partial torso and has the face. I'm definitely on board with the creepy gait. Unfortunately I rendered over the weekend, so the legs are purple & red.
In any case, here she is as the party finds her in 5-09. (Might switch out the babau foot). I'll do something for her in 7-17 next, but I haven't found a backdrop/landscape I like for the worldwound yet.
Overall
Closeup
Credits (And opportunity to rate it)Here's the 'actors' that are part of her. The head on the left is slightly smaller than the main head, so any failed seems just see red. I needed two Kalavakuses because the leg mod was part of a package deal that didn't work with anything else.
....WOW! This is FAN-FREAKING-TASTIC!!
I'm going to print these out and have them for my players. Amazing.
Thank you, glad you like it. I ran off another one with the human foot (most of the work was already done, just had to hide a different layer).
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I definitely like it better with the human foot. Without the foot, the only human showing is that portion of face. It seems like she should be 1/3 of each, possibly more human than demon since her human side is in control most of the time, right?
Other than that, it looks fantastic, James! :)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I agree with Eric, there should be enough human remaining in Valais.
I wonder if at some point the artwork will start influencing the next adventure?
That's something I'm surprised hasn't been brought up yet here. The choice between going to Heaven or hunting a demon. That choice blew my mind when we were playing. In the end my vote was a bit meta; while my PC has confidence in the usefulness of decisive violent action, the chance at playing an adventure in Heaven was too good to ignore. And the whole table agreed that that was so much more epic than hunting down a demon that we had a unanimous decision.
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When I played, we were 4-2 for hunting the babau. It was a little bit of a heated conversation, with the Paladin strongly advocating for heaven. For me, it came down to my character. As a CN former Sczarni, she felt the more direct, faster route was better than what was, at least in our session, presented as less than a certainty. Valais helped find one of the demons. She can help find the other one. But not if she goes off to heaven. So why put her fate in someone else's hands?
I certainly never got the impression that the heaven path was setting up a scenario there. More like we'd eventually see the result of whether or not they saved her. The demon hunt definitely seemed to be setting up another scenario.
Anyway, other characters would have made a different choice, like my LG cleric of Torag.
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I'm glad the choice caused a discussion. It was intended to be something that not only allows some control over the story (based on reporting data) but also shows two valid but very different choices.
As to whether or not the "Heaven" choice results in an adventure there, or merely a mention in some future scenario remains to be seen and is entirely in the hands of the capable PFS development team.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I've heard the requests that Valais should show some more (human) skin. So, I started off being silly but really liked the look of that half leg, so I worked it up into a new version for 5-09 with the half-leg and more human torso. And here's the credits
I suppose for 7-17 she can wear pants over a half leg, just not shoes. I'll take a stab at that overnight.
I'm not sure which character will get played and which will get GM credit. Of the 4 in range, one would definitely vote heaven, one would definitely vote for killing demons, and the other two would be open to negotiating.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Had a difficult time coming up with ways to show more skin in the 7-17 one, as she's had 2 years to find some acid-proof clothes. I ended up with the half-leg idea, and swishing the skirts a bit to show the human skin at the top of the leg. (Must be windy on that tower) This should be the final picture
I tried making it human down to the ankle with a babau foot, and it looked terrible.
It'd be easier if the top of the leg was Babau and the bottom was human, but that doesn't make a lot of sense for a vivisectionist to do.
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This scenario is what happens when players constantly complain that traps are just charges off of a cure wand. Don't get me wrong the scenario is awesome, I had a great time running it but I'll admit I'm more than a little scared to play it. Great job putting it together!
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This scenario is what happens when players constantly complain that traps are just charges off of a cure wand. Don't get me wrong the scenario is awesome, I had a great time running it but I'll admit I'm more than a little scared to play it. Great job putting it together!
Fear and meaningful traps were two of my many objectives; I'm glad to see that they're coming through.
Any questions or feedback for our GM collective?
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This scenario is what happens when players constantly complain that traps are just charges off of a cure wand. Don't get me wrong the scenario is awesome, I had a great time running it but I'll admit I'm more than a little scared to play it. Great job putting it together!Fear and meaningful traps were two of my many objectives; I'm glad to see that they're coming through.
Any questions or feedback for our GM collective?
Unfortunately I didn't have much time to prepare the scenario before I ran it. Got it very last minute before a convention. Thankfully it was straight forward enough that it wasn't cumbersome to run but there are some things I wish I had done differently.
First, as already mentioned the mechanics of the mimic encounter aren't necessarily straight forward. I wish I had put more thought towards how I wanted to adjudicate it before the table ran.
Second, I wish I had done more to hint at the background of the traps the party stumbled upon. From a player perspective it could be very easy to suspect that Laktharis simply trapped his temple to the max a defensive precaution. The background that these traps were used to torment and force the submission of his followers is a fact that really adds to the atmosphere of the temple in my opinion. If I end up running the scenario again I'll likely end up tweaking Valias' demon dialogue somewhat to better hint at this history. My hope is that will help convey to player just how twisted Laktharis is and add to the unsettling nature of the temple.
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I ran this on Tuesday for four players on the higher tier. It went...suprisingly easily for them. I think it was helped by the fact they had a rogue. Also one of the Silver Crusade characters using a Shining Wayfinder and figuring out the mimic was going to be trouble. But yeah, rogue managed to find all the traps after triggering the first one and the players going "oh it's that kind of adventure". One of the comments I heard was "this scenario plays 'poor man rich man' - if you have a rogue, it's going to be much easier". Well, my opinion is, those guys do need their time to shine every once in a while.
They also were firmly on the "to Heaven" opinion side, mostly because they want to go there, I think. But also because they were mostly lawful.
One thing I kinda hoped was more reason for Valais to go into the trapped rooms. The dark one she missed completely, as she kept to the back of the group because she didn't want to fight.
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I ended up forcing my players through the first three traps. They missed the first perception check and set off the pain strike trap. Everyone made the save except for the character taking up the back at which point one of the players requested new perception checks. My response was the only person who noticed the first trap was taking up the rear, it didn't seem reasonable to me that those pressing ahead would have the time to suddenly stop and search for more traps before the set off the other two.
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One of the comments I heard was "this scenario plays 'poor man rich man' - if you have a rogue, it's going to be much easier".
To clarify: what I meant by the saying was that the traps err either to the side of absolutely creaming the party or not doing much to them at all. If the party has a rogue, the first trap is going to instill enough paranoia in them that they'll crawl everywhere taking 20 in Perception. If they don't have a rogue, they're going to have a bad time.