Calculating bonus damage for attacks that generate mundane fire

[BlindBadger]

How do attacks that generate mundane fire work with attack bonuses?

-If a character currently under the bard performance Inspire Courage which gives a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls throws a flask of oil with a lit fuse at an enemy and the flask successfully hits its target, how much damage will the target take from mundane fire? If another enemy is on a square adjacent to the successfully hit target, how much splash damage will that enemy take from mundane fire?
-If the same character throws a burning torch at an enemy that has been previously coated in lamp oil and the oil ignites, how much damage will the enemy take from mundane fire?
-If the same character throws a burning torch at an area of ground that has been soaked with lamp oil and the oil ignites, how much damage will an enemy standing on that ground take from mundane fire?

I am unsure when, if ever, to apply weapon damage bonuses to attacks that generate mundane fire damage.
Would the answers to the above questions be different if the +1 competence bonus was given to "damage rolls" instead of "weapon damage rolls"?

[dragonhunterq]

If the damage is as a result of an attack roll, then add the bonus damage. So, yes from the direct hit with the flask, but no to the splash damage.
yes to the initial hit with the burning torch, no to the damage from the ignited oil.

[BlindBadger]

So when the torch or flask actually hits a target as part of an attack roll bonus damage is triggered but when there is not an attack roll directly against the target the bonus damage is not triggered. Is that right? Does that mean the bonus damage is caused by the impact with the flask/torch itself instead of the fire? If so, would that mean the bonus damage points from the examples above count as general combat damage instead of fire damage for the purposes of resistance?

Say the above character is using a club that is burning to whack at a target that is covered in oil. If the character hits, she gets to add a bonus point of normal combat damage to her normal combat damage from the club. If as a result of being hit by the burning club the target catches on fire, does the target take an additional bonus damage point of fire damage from the fire too?

I think the rules are pretty clear that the character with the burning club gets to add a bonus damage point from the successful impact of the club attack. If the character does not also get to add a bonus damage to the fire they caused by hitting the target with the burning club, why does a character that hits her target with a thrown torch whose impact normally causes no damage get to add a bonus damage to the fire caused by their attack?

[Skylancer4]

Because the rules don't parse that finely to keep the book keeping down and save time.

I guess the best way to explain it is, some attacks have "rider" effects. Rider effects don't benefit from the additional damage. The are just something extra tagged onto the attack when it occurs. This also prevents the damage from being applied twice (once for the attack, once with the rider), to prevent double or triple (or more) "dipping" making the ability more powerful than it is intended to be.

The club hits, it gets the bonus damage. The additional fire is a "rider" the damage doesn't apply as from that point on it is basically an environmental effect, having nothing to do with to the character.

The damage from the torch is the damage from the "weapon" and is the only damage that will be done with that attack so it isn't a "rider" effect, it is the attack. That is why it gets the bonus on the initial hit.

[Samasboy1]

BlindBadger wrote:

If the character does not also get to add a bonus damage to the fire they caused by hitting the target with the burning club, why does a character that hits her target with a thrown torch whose impact normally causes no damage get to add a bonus damage to the fire caused by their attack?

Because you only get the bonus once per attack.

If you attack with a flaming longsword, and someone has Bardic Music going, you don't add the bonus damage to the longsword AND the fire damage.

You add it once.

Similarly, if you hit someone with a torch, you don't add the bonus to the weapon damage and the fire damage, you just get it one time.

And finally, if you throw a flask of oil at someone, where the only damage is the fire, you still add it. Once.

But it only works in circumstances in which you hit and do damage with a weapon. So you would get no bonus if you simply lit a puddle of oil on fire, as you made no attack roll.

[BlindBadger]

Thanks - I think I understand now, but want to make sure:

Given the +1 damage buff from the original example:

-Thrown lit oil flask that has an attack roll to hit target creature gets +1 to fire damage to that creature from resulting fire
-Splash damage from thrown lit oil flask never gets +1 fire damage from resulting fire
-Thrown or swung torch that has an attack roll to hit target oil-soaked creature gets +1 to fire damage to that creature from resulting fire
-Thrown torch that has an attack roll to hit target oil-soaked area does not get +1 to damage to a creature standing in resulting fire

One additional question:
In the burning club example where a player hits a target oil soaked creature and catches it on fire, I understand that the player gets the +1 bonus only once, but can the player choose where to add the +1 damage, in this case to either the club melee damage or the fire damage? This might make a difference if the target has damage immunities or takes bonus damage from different types of attacks. (Such as if the target was immune to fire or could only be damaged by fire.)

[Lost In Limbo]

Generally with attacks such as this there is a primary source of damage and a secondary/rider effect. The primary is always the one which gets the bonus in the situations we're talking about here.

In cases like a burning club the primary damage would be from the weapon itself since it is the constant base form of the weapon, while the fire is secondary since it is a temporary extra effect.

And also, all of your scenarios look about right to m, seems like you've got it down.

[Skylancer4]

BlindBadger wrote:

One additional question:
In the burning club example where a player hits a target oil soaked creature and catches it on fire, I understand that the player gets the +1 bonus only once, but can the player choose where to add the +1 damage, in this case to either the club melee damage or the fire damage? This might make a difference if the target has damage immunities or takes bonus damage from different types of attacks. (Such as if the target was immune to fire or could only be damaged by fire.)

Unfortunately no.

If the club didn't hit, would the fire still burn the creature?

As the answer to this mechanically is "No" the fire isn't the attack, it is the rider effect.

The club being the "attack" limits where the bonus is applied.

However, this doesn't keep you from using another weapon (such as that flask of alchemist fire) which would get the added bonus in the most beneficial way (all fire damage). And this is where "system mastery" (aka knowing the in's and out's of the rules and how they work) comes into play. "Knowing the right tool for the job" and all that jazz.

Slightly off topic:
As a good rule of thumb, if you are asking if something is allowed, it probably isn't (you could be called out as "fudging the rules"). And this comes from the rule set being "exception based." All that means is, the rules tell you what you can do, then some other rules tell you can do "other" things in certain situations OR that these other rules allow for exceptions to established rules.

If you want something to happen, find the rule or mechanic that specifically allows that to happen (or you character to do that thing). Sometimes that leads to "homework" as you go look through the books or PRD for the best fit sadly :(