
BadBird |

What about just a plain-jane dual-fencing Bard that doesn't use Agile weapons or Lace and doesn't sacrifice AB for damage?
10STR, 16/18DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 10WIS, 14CHA
1. Weapon Finesse / Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Weapon Focus: Rapier
5. Fencing Grace
7. Double Slice
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Lets say +3(bonded) rapier (9k)/, +2 rapier (8k), +4DEX Belt (16k).
Mainhand/Offhand Attack: BAB7, +7DEX, +3/2weapon, +1focus, +2Inspire, +2Heroism, +1Haste/Allegro = 23/22AB; -4TWF = 19/18AB
Mainhand/Offhand Damage: (3.5+3/2), +7DEX, +2Inspire, +3Arcane = ~18.5/17.5
With self-buffed Haste/Allegro, attacks will go 19MH/18OH/14MH/13OH/(19MH), which against a 25AC target again works out to around 60DPR (~3 hits x ~18 damage x ~10%crits). Just adding Deliquescent Gloves (8k) would actually boost this to around 70DPR through bonus acid d6's.
If a Barbarian like the one above is going 20/15/(20) with ~30 damage against the same target and 6-point crit, they'll come out more like 70/75DPR (~2 hits x ~30 damage x ~+20% crits). The Bard is certainly not as damaging in general, but a full-attack that can deal around 80% or more of the damage of a raging Barbarian is hardly a lousy offense.

![]() |

While your build actually doesn't have Arcane Strike in it as a feat (I have NO idea what AB is an abbreviation for, but it looks like you're an Arcane Duelist anyways?), you're still actually pulling off about 70 DPR (70.3625, to be precise). If Arcane Strike IS in there, it's a bit more (Closer to ~80 DPR). I will admit that it does more damage than my build, but you also spent more money on weapons/amplifying damage (21k on mine compared to 33k for yours), and as I said, I low-balled my stuff :P. I mean, I could swap out my estocs for falcatas and we could play for real at 10th, but... well, at this point it really doesn't matter much. :P
*Edit: For comparison, the previously posted Barbarian build actually does 76.555 DPR on a non-charge full attack.
Now, to be fair, he can full attack on a charge (higher DPR), and does more damage per hit (which equals more damage when moving), but I'd say that, comparatively speaking, the bard holds up pretty well.

BadBird |

Now, to be fair, he can full attack on a charge (higher DPR), and does more damage per hit (which equals more damage when moving), but I'd say that, comparatively speaking, the bard holds up pretty well.
I avoided comparison to ragepounce, since we're talking about the question of how a TWF Bard stacks up in general, rather than how it stacks up against a specific notorious Barbarian at 10+.
A Dawnflower Dervish will do considerably better yet by hogging x2 Inspire Courage, though they'll need to find another way around spellcasting issues - such as going strength-based but using Dual Talent to get to 17DEX or using Agile weapon-and-cestus or whatever. I don't think Power Attack / Piranha Strike is typically going to be worth the feat for a TWF Bard, regardless of approach.

![]() |

Davor wrote:Now, to be fair, he can full attack on a charge (higher DPR), and does more damage per hit (which equals more damage when moving), but I'd say that, comparatively speaking, the bard holds up pretty well.I avoided comparison to ragepounce, since we're talking about the question of how a TWF Bard stacks up in general, rather than how it stacks up against a specific notorious Barbarian at 10+.
And that's completely fair. People always complain about bard damage, but the fact is that, because they focus on regularly buffing themselves and their allies, they can actually be awesome combatants in addition to the other things they do.

RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Here's a Str-based build for comparison (using 20 PB, with key gear included):
Half-Elf Bard (Arcane Duelist)
16/15/14/10/8/14
Alt. Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (Two-bladed sword)
1: Two-Weapon Fighting (+2/+2, 1d8+4/2)
1b: Arcane Strike
2b: Combat Casting, mwk/mwk weapon (+4/+4, 1d8+4/2)
3: Weapon Focus (TBS), +1/mwk weapon (+6/+6, 1d8+5/2
4: +1 Str (+7/+7, 1d8+5/2)
5: Double Slice, +2 Str belt, +1/+1 weapon (+9/+9, 1d8+9)
6: Disruptive (+10/+10, 1d8+9)
7: Power Attack, +2/+1 weapon (+10/+9, 1d8+14/11)
8: +2/+2 weapon, +1 Str (+12/+12/+7, 1d8+15/13/15)
9: ITWF, +2 Str/Dex belt (+12/+12/+7/+7, 1d8+15/13/15/13)
10: Spellbreaker, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (+14/+14/+9/+9, 1d8+16/14/16/14)
By level 10, I think we can assume heroism up most of the time, and a first round spent casting haste (either from the bard or an ally). With those buffs, his attack routine looks like +17/+17/+17/+11/+11 for 1d8+16/16/14/16/14. This is all with a 19-20 crit range, but Improved Critical and another point from Inspire Courage come in at level 11, plus more scaling on Power Attack.
So the damage is of course sitting lower than a Barbarian of the same level, but the bard also has most of his spells still available, more skill points, and a lot of his buffs are being applied to the whole party. So this is a solid way to go for a back-up melee character.

BadBird |

A similar rather stylish (in my opinion) strength-based option with a Dawnflower Dervish:
Dawnflower Dervish Bard 11
Dual-Talent Human: 14/16STR+, 15/17DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 8WIS, 14CHA
1. Two-Weapon Fighting / (+2/+2 Inspire)
3. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Estoc
5. Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache / (+4/+4 Inspire)
7. Double Slice
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Discordant Voice / (+6/+6, +1d6(sonic) Inspire)
TWF is done with estoc and cestus; a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf turns both weapons into reach weapons for 1 minute at the cost of 1 point of Panache and a swift action. Spellcasting and activating the Swordmaster's Flair is simple with a cestus in the offhand.
Instead of Arcane Strike (made up for with increased Inspire Courage and estoc), swift actions are used to trigger Dodging Panache, which in combination with having reach on both weapons allows the Bard to fully exploit reach and dodging panache tactics - such as forcing an enemy to use their 5-foot step before then stepping away.