IMO, work it out with the GM and other player. The key here is 'engagement' - by which I mean 'debate and conversation'. The paladin needs to be constantly trying to get you to give up your evil ways, while you need to constantly be trying to persuade him to stop being militant-goody-two-shoes. I have thoughts on the matter near the end of this Google Drive document, but it'll all depend on the flexibility of all three of you.
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A thing i always found weird is neither Skeltons nor zombies use the immortal part of a being. So raising one should not mess with anything a death god would care about. They are just animated physical remains, little more than animated objects that once contained a soul.
Quote from the background of my favorite necromancer character:
"As if a stinking pile of rotting meat could be someone you loved. Your laugh, your smile, the way you see the world, everything that makes you who you are is stripped away upon death. All that is left behind is an empty container. When you are given a gift, no matter how beautifully wrapped, do you really put the empty box up on display? No, you throw it away or re-use it. We each received the gift of life, our bodies are simply the box it is wrapped in. Once that life is gone, it doesn't come back. Time to throw the box away, or find some other use for it."
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Work it out with the other player. There isn't really a way to do it by the rules.
That's the second best suggestion so far (the best being "don't play evil").
If you *must* do it, however, be an evil cleric with a spine and walk up to the paladin, saying something honest, such as "I understand you're a paladin. I'm a proud servant of Badgod Evilbad, the Great Equalizer of Doom. Normally it would be beneath me to address servants of Heaven such as you, as I feel like Heaven is a means to perpetuate hypocrisy within the multiverse. However, my church sends me to assist in this particular matter, as our goals align for the time being. Let us resolve this matter together. I understand if you cannot accept this, in which case I will fully understand if you resign your tenure with this adventuring company. It is of my opinion, and my church's, that my skills would constitute a replacement that is more than suitable."
Then, let the paladin PC deal with that. He's the one who picked paladin, after all, the player who made that choice should bear the consequences. Also, look at the rest of the party, as they have a vote. If all of them boo you out, then at least you won't have wasted anyone's time with this. The most infuriating experience for some players if to have a party member of unknown skills/classes/powers that are somehow just being coy as a ploy for attention and spotlight (i.e. "Yessss... see how mysterious I am! jusssst tryyyyy to guess what I ammmmmmmm!" --> #annoying #no)
I think a big issue of the characters getting along is what actions of said cleric expressly violate the dogma of whatever deity the paladin follows. For example, a paladin of Sarenrae might be a lot more amenable to a temporary alliance with a cleric of, say, Asmodeus or possibly even Norgorber than with one of Rovagug. Some of the paladin deities might be less concerned about undeath than others.
It would still be a small miracle for the two characters to coexist for long, but knowing and avoiding each other´s trigger issues would be the key here. A palading might not smite any random evil character just because the new guy/girl stank of evil, but would likely act violently if someone does an act that is anathema to them.
Anyway, do any of the neutral gods except Pharasma and her allies have a fixed opinion on raising undead? I think Gorum and possibly Gozreh may be against it, but I can certainly see Nethys and Callistria being okay with it in certain instances.
Gozreh probably dislikes the undead, since Gozreh's a nature god and the undead are pretty opposite of nature.
Calistria might actually be a sponsor for revenants and other sorts of "vengeance" related undead. On the other hands, Calistria can be gleefully shallow, and (most) undead are gross.
Nethys gives zero damns about undead as long as you're making them with magic or controlling them with magic. But killing undead with magic is rad too.
Pretty sure Gorum wouldn't have any issues with the undead - if anything, Gorum may well approve of getting back out of your grave to keep on fighting.
But I think most neutral deities are (ha) neutral as to undead - to most neutral deities undead are just dangerous monsters and not relevant to any dogma.
Having LE member in LG party shouldn't be more difficult than CG member, because while you can have different opinion in various subjects, LE can atleast behave.
If you don't believe, try have long discussion with layer and bored teenager.
Having LE member in LG party shouldn't be more difficult than CG member
I'd actually expect an Archon to get a long with an Azata more than a Devil
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Having LE member in LG party shouldn't be more difficult than CG memberI'd actually expect an Archon to get a long with an Azata more than a Devil
It is one of the sides of the argument that rarely comes up, but Azatas are constantly attacking or are at war with Archons, they just have the Agathions to thank for mediating most of the conflicts away.
Archons and Devils have one similar goal, Order, but come into conflict as to how exactly that shared goal should be achieved. So long as both groups gave their word, as their words are their bonds, they could be just as firm allies as Archons and Azatas, even if there may be an Axiomite in there somewhere.
Pathfinder milks the Good vs Evil shtick, but it is important to remember that Axiomatic vs Anarchic is just as important a conflict. I believe the books covering Hell more or less stated that not only does Hell has the best army in the multiverse but that no one can match it. But, there is an unspoken alliance between more or less everyone, save Abbadon, against the Abyss since it, and its hordes, are all consuming.
Let me put it this way: so long as devils follow the rules, they can be great friends with archons because you know that if they say they will, then they shall. Its one of the reason Azmodeus gets along with Sarenrae.
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Let me put it this way: so long as devils follow the rules, they can be great friends with archons because you know that if they say they will, then they shall. Its one of the reason Azmodeus gets along with Sarenrae.
They could never be friends, but they might be limited time allies.
The old proverb "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a bad translation; it's better translated "The enemy of my enemy is my ally".
Ex: Just because I might team up with skinheads if the airplane we're both on is hijacked by terrorists does not mean that I'm going to invite them over for tea after we land safely on the ground.
Let me put it this way: so long as devils follow the rules, they can be great friends with archons because you know that if they say they will, then they shall. Its one of the reason Azmodeus gets along with Sarenrae.
What do you mean, "so long as the devils follow the rules"?
They are literally made of LAW and are as incapable of NOT following the rules as fire elementals are incapable of NOT burning flammable tinder they touch.
Devils always follow the rules (but it's a bad idea to let them make the rules; contracts written by devils may be lawfully binding to that devil, but full of loopholes and other devices that allow the devil to follow the letter of the rules and still get all the advantages).
If an Archon and a Devil can agree on mutually satisfying rules, they can work together, maybe even happily work together, for as long as it's mutually beneficial to do so.
Of course, that doesn't mean they will like each other.
If an Archon and a Devil can agree on mutually satisfying rules, they can work together, maybe even happily work together, for as long as it's mutually beneficial to do so.
Of course, that doesn't mean they will like each other.
And that is, in a nutshell, how you have a LG Paladin and a LE Cleric in the same party.
They agree on the rules and boundaries, and they work it out. They don't become best friends, they don't actively approve of or adopt the methods of the other, but they form a working relationship that achieves the end goals.
Kind of like Mythbusters. Adam and Jamie are not friends. They don't particularly like each other, they don't spend any time together outside of work, but on camera they made a great pair.
The challenge with your character that I see is that it may not be a problem at 1st level when the campaign starts. You hide your alignment (on agreement with the paladin player, nod nod wink wink say no more) and things are fine.
Until you start wanting to consume souls with deathknell, or animate dead, or strike bargains with bone Devils, etc etc. These things are both very visual and clearly evil.
At this point you are part way through a campaign and it may well generate some interesting roleplay. What happens in the next encounter and the next, and the next. You are now asking the Paladin to act dumb and not notice/or care about the continued infractions, or your character has to not get to use the abilities you designed them for. This cannot end well.
There is a big difference between tolerating a person who is evil so you can achieve something significant and having to watch that person continue to do evil - particularly when them choosing a non-evil variant could achieve the aim just as easily.
Campaigns do not have a few key encounters like novels or films have, they have dozens of encounters of the same levels in repetition. The novelty can soon wear off.
It sounds to me like you would be better off DMing to get these urges out of the way. It is very satisfying! Or your DM decides to ignore paladins falling and treats them as a warrior with clerical magic. That is your DMs call (and the rest of the party).
Incidentally, without wanting to spark a whole repeat of the evil undead thread, walking corpses are inherently horrifying and repulsive to people. Forcing your colleagues and people you meet to confront that sight is not a nice thing to do.
Ironically I had the opposite problem in way of the wicked, the sorceress kept doing good acts secretly because of her secret guilt and the antipaladin had a real issue with it because it compromised their missions. It caused substantial problems both in game and out of game at a time when high level play (around 15th level) the game is already getting tricky to manage.
If an Archon and a Devil can agree on mutually satisfying rules, they can work together, maybe even happily work together, for as long as it's mutually beneficial to do so.
Of course, that doesn't mean they will like each other.
And that is, in a nutshell, how you have a LG Paladin and a LE Cleric in the same party.
They agree on the rules and boundaries, and they work it out. They don't become best friends, they don't actively approve of or adopt the methods of the other, but they form a working relationship that achieves the end goals.
Kind of like Mythbusters. Adam and Jamie are not friends. They don't particularly like each other, they don't spend any time together outside of work, but on camera they made a great pair.
I wish it were that simple, but the CRB disagrees. It essentially says the paladin won't associate with evil characters except for the short term to deal with a bigger problem. Perhaps because evil people are NOT made out of law and cannot be trusted to abide by the letter of their lawful contract the way a devil can. And because the paladin has sworn an oath and loses his powers for violating it, both of which are not problems for an archon.
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On the undead front only: a level of Juju oracle makes all your undead neutral IIRC. So maybe playing a juju oracle or even a 1 level dip (yeah I know its painful) could fix one of your main issues regarding the paladin. Plus you could more easily persuade him that since they are not evil, they are merely magical spellcraft, and not undead :)
DM_Blake wrote:
I wish it were that simple, but the CRB disagrees. It essentially says the paladin won't associate with evil characters except for the short term to deal with a bigger problem. Perhaps because evil people are NOT made out of law and cannot be trusted to abide by the letter of their lawful contract the way a devil can. And because the paladin has sworn an oath and loses his powers for violating it, both of which are not problems for an archon.
On a side note (fun story notwithstanding), I would imagine if the paladin did not figure this out eventually, his god would start penalizing his powers and abilities until he got a clue. After all, who do you think put the "don't play nice with evil" clause in paladin's contract. Just because the paladin is ignorant does not mean his god is....obviously this isnt canon per se, but it is a reasonable extrapolation of why that stricture is there in the first place.
Well, technically, the LE cleric of Abadar's a heretic too - the actual god's LN, after all. A LG paladin and LE cleric are both outsiders to the mainstream faith.
(But the gods themselves are totally cool with heretics as long the heretic isn't too far off base...)
Eh, heretic for whom? Abadar should be the final arbiter on Abadarite dogma :) .
Except... do paladins actually ever get their powers directly from a deity? I didn't think that a deity's orders could override their code.
I have wondered about that. I think it was mentioned that a paladin does not need to worship a deity, but does that mean that a deity is unable to grant him or her power and respectively strip it away? Since Faiths of Purity has deity-specific codes for paladins that must be adhered to, I expect that a deity can directly grant or deny that power.
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Well, technically, the LE cleric of Abadar's a heretic too - the actual god's LN, after all. A LG paladin and LE cleric are both outsiders to the mainstream faith.
(But the gods themselves are totally cool with heretics as long the heretic isn't too far off base...)
Yes, that is definitely true...
Of course, that puts all sorts of interesting RPing aspects in play (which I assume is part of the reason we have players attempting to shoehorn a LE undead raising cleric and LG Paladin into the same party).
Might even be an eventual unifying factor in their storyline, two heretics of Abadar thrown together by their god to shake up the church who was getting too dogmatic and inflexible....
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Do two heretics make a right?
to shake up the church who was getting too dogmatic and inflexible....
Why would a LN god have a problem with dogmatic and inflexible? That's what he wants. EVERY church wants that, although I might allow that some of the weird chaotic cults/churches might disagree to a small extent, but I'm sure that most of their leadership would find that they prefer their followers to be dogmatic and inflexible with regards to their adherence to church doctrines and covenants, even if their outward-facing behavior is much more flexible.
to shake up the church who was getting too dogmatic and inflexible....Why would a LN god have a problem with dogmatic and inflexible? That's what he wants.
Not when bureaucrates are making the work impossible and to get anything done needs will of Irori and bribing the one who knew shortcuts.
Sometimes even the most stable machine needs a nudge to right diraction.
Hey, how set are you on specifically being a Cleric?
I was researching a character I want to make and found something that would help you.
Oracle Curse, Unchained.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses
The primary effect makes you immune to any and all spells that try to discern your alignment.
I've been given the go ahead to play an evil Cleric in an upcoming campaign. I just found out there would be a paladin in our group, and I'm wondering how to hide my aura of evil from him from the start. I'm hoping my bluff skill, I picked trickery as a domain, will be enough to keep the paladin at bay, but I'd like some ideas on how to keep it from him.
The issue is compounded by the fact I was intending to raise and control some undead minions. I can always try and bluff that as well, but I'm not sure how often "I was able to save their life and they've devoted their lives to serve my church. Also they've taken a vow of silence" will work.
I'm open to both role playing and mechanics ideas.
This is a little outdated and a necro but for anyone wanting to do this take a look at Channeler of the Unknown. Not PFS legal that I know of but certainly fine for a homebrew. Thanks
Well, evil characters are not PFS legal either -- but "evil-curious" neutral types are, as are neutral worshipers of evil deities.
But, since the other player has already chosen to play a paladin, your best bet is to come up with a reason between the two of you for your evil cleric and his paladin to work together, without anyone trying to fool anyone else. Failing that, come up with a less contentious character concept.
I know that the exact situation is years old, but it does seem to come up repeatedly.