I picked up Bestiary 3 recently and as soon as I saw the Ecorche I fell in love. The thing is so cool, however it's a bit high as far as CR go and I was wanting to throw a version of it at a much lower level party. I was thinking of using it as a boss fight to go against a rather large party of level 3 players. I understand that singular monsters are bad as far as encounters go so I was thinking of using an NPC that would go with the party and after what would appear to be a "boss fight" both in and out of game I'd spring the Ecorche on then. The only problem is I don't want to completely annihilate the party. So does anyone have any good tips for making a lower CR Ecorche maybe around CR 5-6 ish.
TL;DR Any ideas for making a CR-5-6 Ecorche that retains the flavour of the monster but not its strength.
Link to the Ecorche
Basically just nerf the hell out of his numbers. Take away about 10 levels worth of numbers. Half his HP, cut his DR to 5, cut all his saves in half, cut his AC down to around 20ish, cut his frightful presence DC to about 2/3 or so, take away about 5 feats, lower his BaB by 10, etc.
There are easy ways to make small CR modifications in about the 1-3 range. For a jump of 10, you need to just really alter the numbers and make some judgement calls (for instance, I would probably get rid of his bleed that causes Con drain).
|
Make a cr appropriate imperial ghast that gains the alter self ability, but only for creatures it paralizes in combat.
this does not fit cr 6 in any way and must go. Which is what I tried to mimic above.
Seize Skin (Su)
Whenever an ecorche damages a target with its rend ability, the target must succeed at a DC 25 Fortitude save to resist being skinned alive. Those who fail the save become staggered and take 1 point of Constitution drain per round. Both of these effects are permanent but can be removed with a regenerate or heal spell (or 1 round of regeneration). The ecorche can use its wear skin ability to don a skin stolen in this way as a full-round action. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Also note that certain abilities like con drain and seize skin should not exist for low-level play. The con drain would simply kill them. You can still make it a wearer of skin, but have it so that it only works on a helpless victim or that it takes time or something.
While I appreciate your contribution GeneticDrift I think I'm going to go more along the lines of what Carl is suggesting.
I understand that this isn't going to be particularly smooth or easy but I think that it will pay off in the long run as far as my current campaign is concerned.
Considering the particular abilities and the role of an Ecorche I'm thinking of using it as a small story arc in an urban setting of a game I'm currently running. Have it be a recurring enemy that runs away from its first encounter with the PCs. I want this thing to be something the players are going to have to investigate to find its lair all while it uses the skin of various nobles to screw with their ability to gather information and operate out of the city they are in.
One thing about certain abilities as far as custom monsters go is that they don't influence CR at all if I don't use them against PCs. So if it decides to run then it uses seize and wear skin to get away but won't use it to instakill a PC.
Also note that certain abilities like con drain and seize skin should not exist for low-level play. The con drain would simply kill them. You can still make it a wearer of skin, but have it so that it only works on a helpless victim or that it takes time or something.
Yeah I was thinking about the implications of those abilities. I want to make this thing a bruiser in combat but also able to attack the players socially via killing off and taking the place of various nobles.
I also fell in love with the ecorche when I first saw it. It was a long-term villain, but it was a villain since the party was level one. It was impersonating the king but it had been wearing his skin for so long that it began to decompose, so he needed to wear a special ring to preserve the dead skin. The PCs were very confused and terrified when the king's muscles suddenly started bursting out of his skin as he barked "Go retrieve my ring!"
Yeah, I think making a "Lesser Ecorche" would be good. Obviously nerf the numbers, by about 10 levels worth IMHO, and I would say make it so that the skinning only works on helpless or dead targets.
I also fell in love with the ecorche when I first saw it. It was a long-term villain, but it was a villain since the party was level one. It was impersonating the king but it had been wearing his skin for so long that it began to decompose, so he needed to wear a special ring to preserve the dead skin. The PCs were very confused and terrified when the king's muscles suddenly started bursting out of his skin as he barked "Go retrieve my ring!"
Yeah, I think making a "Lesser Ecorche" would be good. Obviously nerf the numbers, by about 10 levels worth IMHO, and I would say make it so that the skinning only works on helpless or dead targets.
Definitely Going to nerf the numbers. I'll take a look at the rules for creating and scaling up monsters and work backwards from there.
I'm not really worried about the ability to rip flesh being balanced because I don't plan on using it on the players, but I do think that having a massive undead monstrosity rend the flesh off if a living Npc might create a memorable encounter.
|
I regret not having the time to do a full scaling down of this monster (good practice for RPGSS). Here come my ideas nonetheless :
1) Check the creation rules to see how the original Ecorche differs from the standard values for its CR. You might want to keep the same kind of deviation in your Lesser Ecorche
2) Check the creation rules for this new CR6 or so creature, specifically the usual values for a given CR (att, deg, AC, stats, DC for abilities)
This will already put your Lesser Ecorche closer to the target
3) The abilities
Darkvision 60 is not OP. Keep it.
You might want to nerf the size to Medium, with a Large skin stashed away somewhere for when it needs the size. But I get that you might want to keep it Large for the visuals. I think it is not really OP either.
Frightful presence is a bit harsh at such a low level, but it is pretty much a part of its theme, so I would keep it, but reduce its range to 30.
I would get rid of fast healing, or at least significantly reduce it.
Channel resistance could go or stay as you wish (I would keep it).
DR 5/silver should be ok for this CR. Check monsters with this kind of DR to see what their CR is. Or get rid of it completely if you keep fast healing.
Bleed should be usual bleeding damage or CON damage at most.
Wear Skin is ok as it is IMO, but reduce the frightful presence effect's range to 30.
Seize Skin needs heavy rework. I would keep staggered but make the CON effect damage (not drain) and it lasts only one round. Healing to full health would end the effects (or some alternative with magical healing available at your PCs' level).
Have fun with your rebuilding ;-)
I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to post this here. Someone let me know if I'm not.
My preliminary statblock for a Lesser Ecorche.
CR 7
XP 3,200
CE Large undead
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
Aura frightful presence (30 ft., DC 19)
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 Dex, +6 natural, –1 size)
hp 95 (10d8+50); fast healing 5
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +2; DR 5/silver; Immune acid, undead traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +13 (1d8+6+1 bleed)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 20, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 21
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 28
Feats Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack
Skills Disguise +17, Perception +13, Stealth +13
Languages Common
SQ wear skin
ECOLOGY
Environment any land
Organization solitary or gang (2–4)
Treasure none
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Seize Skin (Su) An Ecorche may take a full round action to rend the flesh from an opponent, the target must succeed at a DC 20 Fortitude save to resist being skinned alive. Those who fail the save become staggered and take 1 point of Constitution damage per round. Both of these effects are permanent but can be removed with a regenerate or heal spell (or 1 round of regeneration). The ecorche can use its wear skin ability to don a skin stolen in this way as a full-round action. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Wear Skin (Su) An ecorche can steal the skin of a dead Small, Medium, or Large humanoid and wear it as its own. When it does this, the ecorche takes on the creature's size and appearance and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate the victim. While wearing a stolen skin, an ecorche cannot use its frightful presence. This stolen skin is preserved while the ecorche wears it, but is destroyed if the ecorche takes more than 10 points of damage or if the ecorche chooses to destroy the skin as a standard action. Those within 60 feet who see an ecorche's stolen skin destroyed are immediately subjected to its frightful presence and take a –5 penalty on the related Will save. An ecorche reverts to its normal size if its stolen skin is destroyed
What do you guys think?
There is no problem with posting it here, as long as you're not worried about somebody else stealing your idea.
Some feedback:
1) With a strength score of 22 the ecorche no longer meets the prerequisite for the awesome blow feat.
2) You forgot size penalty on your attack modifier calculation. With a BaB of +7 and a Str of 22, you're adding 12 to hit.
3) CMD is 1 lower than it should be. I think you forgot size bonus.
4) What is the bleed now? You have bleed listed under the claw attacks but don't specify the effect of it.
My recommendation is to increase strength by 3 points to meet the prerequisites for awesome blow (the feat is so awesome). I would also consider lowering his fast healing a little, as DR 5 combined with fast healing 5 can be pretty hard to hurt at that level. Either that or make it so that something stops his fast healing, such as silver or cold or something thematically cool.
Overall, the numbers you picked out look very good!
I adjusted a few of the numbers. The bleed is supposed to just be pure hp bleed now. I don't usually build custom monsters(though this is quite fun) and I don't make my own very often so I'm not very used to applying a size bonus/penalty as I usually stick to medium races when I play a character.
I'm fine with leaving the DR and fast healing as they are, because the party isn't going to beat this thing on their first try. But after their fight they'll have an opportunity to research the creature and figure out its weaknesses if they don't pass a knowledge check in combat. Also if you take note of the Seize Skin ability as the rend attack has been removed it now requires a full-round action. This would normally be a straight power upgrade but since I have specific plans for this monster and rending NPC(but player) flesh is one of them.
Also in the original statblock the Ecorche has a claw attack for 3d6 damage. Was there any reason behind that because the normal claw damage for a creature of that size is around 1d6-1d8. Did the design team just want more variable damage?
CR 7
XP 3,200
CE Large undead
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
Aura frightful presence (30 ft., DC 19)
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+5 Dex, +6 natural, –1 size)
hp 95 (10d8+50); fast healing 5
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +2; DR 5/silver; Immune acid, undead traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +13 (1d8+7+1 bleed)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks
STATISTICS
Str 25, Dex 20, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 21
Base Atk +7; CMB +15; CMD 30
Feats Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack
Skills Disguise +17, Perception +13, Stealth +13
Languages Common
SQ wear skin
ECOLOGY
Environment any land
Organization solitary or gang (2–4)
Treasure none
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Seize Skin (Su) An Ecorche may take a full round action to rend the flesh from an opponent, the target must succeed at a DC 20 Fortitude save to resist being skinned alive. Those who fail the save become staggered and take 1 point of Constitution damage per round. Both of these effects are permanent but can be removed with a regenerate or heal spell (or 1 round of regeneration). The ecorche can use its wear skin ability to don a skin stolen in this way as a full-round action. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Wear Skin (Su) An ecorche can steal the skin of a dead Small, Medium, or Large humanoid and wear it as its own. When it does this, the ecorche takes on the creature's size and appearance and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate the victim. While wearing a stolen skin, an ecorche cannot use its frightful presence. This stolen skin is preserved while the ecorche wears it, but is destroyed if the ecorche takes more than 10 points of damage or if the ecorche chooses to destroy the skin as a standard action. Those within 60 feet who see an ecorche's stolen skin destroyed are immediately subjected to its frightful presence and take a –5 penalty on the related Will save. An ecorche reverts to its normal size if its stolen skin is destroyed
As far as having high claw damage, it's probably just because it's a CR 16 monster with only 2 attacks per round.
I think it's a pretty solid statblock, it should be ready to go! Best of luck with the game and tell us how it goes!
As far as having high claw damage, it's probably just because it's a CR 16 monster with only 2 attacks per round.
I think it's a pretty solid statblock, it should be ready to go! Best of luck with the game and tell us how it goes!
The next session is tomorrow. Though I probably won't reveal this thing for another session or two. Then it'll slink away and start working against the party through impersonating nobles.
Thanks for the help everyone.