XLordxErebusX,
People who come into the community, post what amounts to a declaration that the rules are wrong, and then argue with EVERYONE are not asking for help. They are asking for an argument.
If the OP had actually been interested in listening to people the thread may have turned out differently.
Additionally, it was repeatedly suggested that he move to a different forum where people would be happy to discuss possible house rules to fix his problem but instead he argued that he was in the correct forum. *shrugs*
XLordxErebusX: The OP didn't really ask for help. He told everyone there WAS a broken rule that HAD to be fixed. He, however, found that no one agreed with him and instead agreed he was looking for house-rule as the current rules work as/is.
So looking at this thread should show you lots of people logged in and posted suggestions and explanations. I seems to me everyone had been on pretty good behavior and repeatedly tried to get through to him. After 100+ posts though, everyone is getting tired of talking to the wall.
Aralicia: I asked just that. If he wants to 'fix' things, lets get down to making a house-rule that'll work for him. Stomping his feet and insisting it's broken isn't getting him anywhere. In fact, it seems he's driving away people that would have otherwise been happy to help.
Both: Had the OP come in and said "I don't like how this rule works. How can I fix it? Any suggestions?" I can guarantee it'd would have been a very different thread. However insisting the flat rates for special materials is a rules problem that paizo HAS to fix isn't going to get you anywhere.
If you can make a sword out of $20 worth of steel, that doesn't mean your sword is worth $20.
I'm baffled why some people don't understand that.
Rjenkins wrote: Shiroi wrote: A dagger weighs 1 lb. An Earthbreaker weighs 14 lbs. They both have the exact same mechanical benefit from becoming adamantine, the ability to bypass hardness of 20.
On an earthbreaker, rolling 2d6+(str*1.5), I could theoretically beat hardness 20. On a dagger rolling 1d4+str, this is *highly* unlikely.
You're telling me you think it's a good idea to charge 14 times as much for what could arguably be *less* benefit?
You mean to tell me that a level 7-10 character does not have the gold to shell out the difference regardless? You are paying for a different flavor, and you compare a light weapon to a two handed weapon, one that can do more damage with strength bonuses, damage dice averave 4.5 more damage per attack, and the weapon as a crazier multiplier for crit than a dagger. Both have the same adamantine weapon, but by all means sunder away at someone with a dagger, and get destroyed in the process. So if you're basically saying the amount of gold charged is irrelevant to most players by the time they can afford it, please do remind us all what in the flying red dragons you're trying to accomplish here? It's either an irrelevant amount of gold, or it's relevant in some way. If it's relevant and worth arguing about, it seems like most people want it to be based around game balance and simplicity rather than realism.
EDIT: For that matter, what of the generalization of weight in the pathfinder system all together? Real world full plate could weigh as much as 100 lbs. In pathfinder it's listed as 50 lbs. Obviously not every suit of full plate will be 50 lbs, since each piece is custom fitted to the wearer. Why are you not looking at how much the armor should weight for a thin human (medium creature) vs a hulking orc (medium creature)? They shouldn't pay for the same amount of adamantium even within the same exact model of armor by your logic.
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Cyrad wrote: If you can make a sword out of $20 worth of steel, that doesn't mean your sword is worth $20.
I'm baffled why some people don't understand that.
I'm not sure which people you're saying don't understand this. To oversimplify, there are two camps in this thread. They're based on the reaction to the fact that adamantine items can get to the point that their price is less than the price of an equivalent weight of raw adamantine.
1.) This is a problem because that means that the economy is broken, either because it's illogical for crafters to make less valuable things out of expensive raw materials or because PCs will melt down adamantine items for profit including a possible infinite gold exploit.
2.) This isn't a problem because the game doesn't make a serious attempt at being an economy simulator for items that have mechanical impacts. If your PCs require it, create a reason it won't work (e.g. that's the price for adamantine ore, this is an alloy of that or once it has been worked it gets locked in that position and will become brittle if repeatedly worked, losing its inherent value). But the price is about the mechanical value, not the in-world value.
Both positions have merit. Neither is misunderstanding a fundamental economic truth.
Rjenkins wrote: Thanks for all the crying about which forum this belongs in, the root of my original post was some rules are broken, that is what I wanted addressed, and I was given a lot of speculation by everyone. This is something Paizo could easily fix. Based on the content of the original post, we felt that this was the most appropriate forum for this thread. Rather than accusing others in the thread about these actions, please ping us at community@paizo.com if you have concerns.
I'd also like to encourage once again that the discussion being had here move in a more constructive direction. Otherwise, it will be locked.
Markon wrote: You know, I haven't been on these forums in a while, and this sort of conversation reminds me of why. To those saying the rules on prices are "broken"..... you're wrong. People have explained why; the rules are priced based on the MECHANICAL benefit they give, and when you look at it from that point of view (and that clearly is the point of view of the game developers, because that's what the result reflects), the rules work fine.
Now, if you say "the prices on weapons from Sdamantine and Mithral are unrealistic from the point of view of raw materials needed", then this is true. but that's because the game is mostly balanced around combat mechanics. Yes, I realize the game has some role-playing related skills and feats and powers, but when it comes to determining he cost of something, game balance is the core consideration, not "How realistically does this model a real economy?"
There is nothing that needs an "easy fix". The point of the game is NOT to worry about the economy so much. Go adventure if you need to make some money. Or play an RPG that handles wealth in a more interesting manner, such as allowing it to be used to boost various skills, that sort of thing. Pathfinder is not the game to use to delve into the idea of setting up a fancy economy, at least certainly not in the nitty-gritty of crafting unusual items.
Let it go. :)
He simple fix is to remove the price per pound of special materials, yes the rules are broken, my players have found a way to effectively cheat the system by making a bunch of Adamantine daggers for serious mark up, and going at face value for how things are they are not wrong, but the fact they also want to buy light adamantine armor to turn into more daggers for crazy profit, it is also legal.
Shiroi wrote: Rjenkins wrote: Shiroi wrote: A dagger weighs 1 lb. An Earthbreaker weighs 14 lbs. They both have the exact same mechanical benefit from becoming adamantine, the ability to bypass hardness of 20.
On an earthbreaker, rolling 2d6+(str*1.5), I could theoretically beat hardness 20. On a dagger rolling 1d4+str, this is *highly* unlikely.
You're telling me you think it's a good idea to charge 14 times as much for what could arguably be *less* benefit?
You mean to tell me that a level 7-10 character does not have the gold to shell out the difference regardless? You are paying for a different flavor, and you compare a light weapon to a two handed weapon, one that can do more damage with strength bonuses, damage dice averave 4.5 more damage per attack, and the weapon as a crazier multiplier for crit than a dagger. Both have the same adamantine weapon, but by all means sunder away at someone with a dagger, and get destroyed in the process. So if you're basically saying the amount of gold charged is irrelevant to most players by the time they can afford it, please do remind us all what in the flying red dragons you're trying to accomplish here? It's either an irrelevant amount of gold, or it's relevant in some way. If it's relevant and worth arguing about, it seems like most people want it to be based around game balance and simplicity rather than realism.
EDIT: For that matter, what of the generalization of weight in the pathfinder system all together? Real world full plate could weigh as much as 100 lbs. In pathfinder it's listed as 50 lbs. Obviously not every suit of full plate will be 50 lbs, since each piece is custom fitted to the wearer. Why are you not looking at how much the armor should weight for a thin human (medium creature) vs a hulking orc (medium creature)? They shouldn't pay for the same amount of adamantium even within the same exact model of armor by your logic. Spending a difference of a few thousand gold for a weapon or piece of armor that goes with your feats and or class abilities for flavor and feature of the items is insignificant for a player who can afford it, atthe same time being able to mass produce mass amounts of adamantine daggers because you have a limited source of adamantine available and even if you had to spend 1 pound of adamantine and then another 718 gold on random "materials" to construct an adamantine dagger to extend the longevity of your adamantine supply for profit to have the maximum possible amount of profit so you can buy and equip yourself with as much as possible is an issue. Also using said profit to buy other adamantine items to melt down for more dagger creation for profit. One fullplate made from adamantine costs 16500 and weighs 50 pounds, even at only 25 pounds of the item being adamantine(which there is no wording to support that is how it works, that is another 25-50 pounds of adamantine to melt down for more daggers for more profit.
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