Rjenkins's page

Rjenkins wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

A dagger weighs 1 lb. An Earthbreaker weighs 14 lbs. They both have the exact same mechanical benefit from becoming adamantine, the ability to bypass hardness of 20.

On an earthbreaker, rolling 2d6+(str*1.5), I could theoretically beat hardness 20. On a dagger rolling 1d4+str, this is *highly* unlikely.

You're telling me you think it's a good idea to charge 14 times as much for what could arguably be *less* benefit?

You mean to tell me that a level 7-10 character does not have the gold to shell out the difference regardless? You are paying for a different flavor, and you compare a light weapon to a two handed weapon, one that can do more damage with strength bonuses, damage dice averave 4.5 more damage per attack, and the weapon as a crazier multiplier for crit than a dagger. Both have the same adamantine weapon, but by all means sunder away at someone with a dagger, and get destroyed in the process.

So if you're basically saying the amount of gold charged is irrelevant to most players by the time they can afford it, please do remind us all what in the flying red dragons you're trying to accomplish here? It's either an irrelevant amount of gold, or it's relevant in some way. If it's relevant and worth arguing about, it seems like most people want it to be based around game balance and simplicity rather than realism.

EDIT: For that matter, what of the generalization of weight in the pathfinder system all together? Real world full plate could weigh as much as 100 lbs. In pathfinder it's listed as 50 lbs. Obviously not every suit of full plate will be 50 lbs, since each piece is custom fitted to the wearer. Why are you not looking at how much the armor should weight for a thin human (medium creature) vs a hulking orc (medium creature)? They shouldn't pay for the same amount of adamantium even within the same exact model of armor by your logic.

Spending a difference of a few thousand gold for a weapon or piece of armor that goes with your feats and or class abilities for flavor and feature of the items is insignificant for a player who can afford it, atthe same time being able to mass produce mass amounts of adamantine daggers because you have a limited source of adamantine available and even if you had to spend 1 pound of adamantine and then another 718 gold on random "materials" to construct an adamantine dagger to extend the longevity of your adamantine supply for profit to have the maximum possible amount of profit so you can buy and equip yourself with as much as possible is an issue. Also using said profit to buy other adamantine items to melt down for more dagger creation for profit. One fullplate made from adamantine costs 16500 and weighs 50 pounds, even at only 25 pounds of the item being adamantine(which there is no wording to support that is how it works, that is another 25-50 pounds of adamantine to melt down for more daggers for more profit.

You know, I haven't been on these forums in a while, and this sort of conversation reminds me of why. To those saying the rules on prices are "broken"..... you're wrong. People have explained why; the rules are priced based on the MECHANICAL benefit they give, and when you look at it from that point of view (and that clearly is the point of view of the game developers, because that's what the result reflects), the rules work fine.

Now, if you say "the prices on weapons from Sdamantine and Mithral are unrealistic from the point of view of raw materials needed", then this is true. but that's because the game is mostly balanced around combat mechanics. Yes, I realize the game has some role-playing related skills and feats and powers, but when it comes to determining he cost of something, game balance is the core consideration, not "How realistically does this model a real economy?"

There is nothing that needs an "easy fix". The point of the game is NOT to worry about the economy so much. Go adventure if you need to make some money. Or play an RPG that handles wealth in a more interesting manner, such as allowing it to be used to boost various skills, that sort of thing. Pathfinder is not the game to use to delve into the idea of setting up a fancy economy, at least certainly not in the nitty-gritty of crafting unusual items.

Let it go. :)

He simple fix is to remove the price per pound of special materials, yes the rules are broken, my players have found a way to effectively cheat the system by making a bunch of Adamantine daggers for serious mark up, and going at face value for how things are they are not wrong, but the fact they also want to buy light adamantine armor to turn into more daggers for crazy profit, it is also legal.

Thanks for all the crying about which forum this belongs in, the root of my original post was some rules are broken, that is what I wanted addressed, and I was given a lot of speculation by everyone. This is something Paizo could easily fix.

A dagger weighs 1 lb. An Earthbreaker weighs 14 lbs. They both have the exact same mechanical benefit from becoming adamantine, the ability to bypass hardness of 20.

On an earthbreaker, rolling 2d6+(str*1.5), I could theoretically beat hardness 20. On a dagger rolling 1d4+str, this is *highly* unlikely.

You're telling me you think it's a good idea to charge 14 times as much for what could arguably be *less* benefit?

You mean to tell me that a level 7-10 character does not have the gold to shell out the difference regardless? You are paying for a different flavor, and you compare a light weapon to a two handed weapon, one that can do more damage with strength bonuses, damage dice averave 4.5 more damage per attack, and the weapon as a crazier multiplier for crit than a dagger. Both have the same adamantine weapon, but by all means sunder away at someone with a dagger, and get destroyed in the process.

I hate it when I go to a department store and they charge me the same amount of money for a pair of slacks regardless of size instead of weighing them and charging me the price per ounce of cotton.

It just ruins the verisimilitude of reality.

Never been to a big and tall store, I am tall enough I have had to shop there before, there is a price difference. Ever deal in expensive furs, or buy jewelry made from acfual gold or silver vs jewelry made from non precious metals of a similar size?

Well, how much of the weight is the handle? Shouldn't that be subtracted from your calculations if we use your (house) rule?

How about a metal weapon with a wooden haft? How much of the weapon is the adamantine then?

Clearly, the rules do not cover all circumstances.

You are creating your own rule because it does not state that it is 100% adamantine. Just like it does not state that it replaces (or not) the wooden haft of a metal weapon.

And as for including it in the description, no, they wouldn't. They do not expect people to do what you are trying to do. They expect people to operate within the rules or make their own. You are trying to make your own and call it within the rules and then claim the rules are broken.

Anyhow, this is a very dead horse. Or would you like to debate the ratio of meat to bone in the horse? :P

A greatsword is an eight pound item with a 5 foot blade on it, like I said the rules require you to spend as much as 3.18 pounds of adamantine costs, the handle is not going to weigh half the weight, and the part that makes up the blade goes end to end, it is just covered with the handle, and who is to say the hilt and handle are also not adamantine?

Okay, I can't read all this pedantic bull but I have to chime in.

Screw your weight, I benefit just as much from adamantine on my armor regardless of its weight provided it falls within the same armor type. All heavy armor users benefit the same from Adamantine, all heavy armor users pay the same price for the priviledge. A dagger of adamantine pierces DR exactly the same way an Earthbreaker of adamantine does, despite the weight difference, so you pay the same amount of gold for the same benefit.

It doesn't matter whether it makes sense, it matters if it's fair for all the players at the table. There's nothing that says my full plate has to be of a certain thickness, so can I have the benefit of adamantine full plate if I make it aluminum paper thin and weigh all of 2 lbs? It's so hard it should keep its shape after all. Bet it reduces my armor check penalty too, being so thin and flexible. Especially if I make the joints out of rubber with strips of adamantine through them.

You can't go so far down into the details of creating a realistic rule set that you forget you're playing a game. If you want the armor to be real, to weigh the right amount and cost the right amount? Go be a blacksmith IRL. It's more profitable and you'd definitely know it weighed as much as the metal you made it of.

You realize most armors of the same class weigh similar amounts, a fieldplate, halfplate, and full plate weigh 50 pounds the difference between those items is the base armor and check penalty and spell penalty...

All the same as for the weapons regardless of the material theh are made from do the same thing as any other weapon made from the same material, a steel dagger costs 2 gold and a greatsword costs 50 gold, but they are both made from steel, lets make it fair for everyone at the table and make them both 5 gold....

You are paying for differences in the weapons base features, so when a special material subsitutes steel, you should pay the difference in weight, by the time someone has gold to make an adamntine weapon or buy one, if they are worried over a few thousand gold pieces, they probably are not high enough level to have those items. About what level do you typically come across things with damage reduction? What is character wealth supposed fo be around that level?, in my campaign tbey came across the adamantine source around level 7, theh have get to use anything with it yet and are level 10, i do not think theg would care if they had to spend a little more for a weapon tbey wouod prefer to use, but I am so gpad you listed heavy armor as an example that category of armor all mlstly weighs that much lol.

So you are telling me the first two listings they have for special materials, one states it is bonded to steel, and the other does not state that but says something like an item made from blank, is it not then 100% made from blank? Where am I drawing my own rules there, clearly if they wanted it mixed to something they would include it in the description.

You are misrepresenting my position, again.

I have not stated admantine weapons have non-special material in them.

I have stated that the rules are silent on the ratio.

Any statement of the ratio is a house rule.

If you can produce a rule that clearly states that weapons are entirely made up of adamantine then please show it. Otherwise, the rules are silent on the matter.

Until now, you have only shown misreadings of the rules.

In any case, you are still using a house rule to break weapons and armor down by weight. There is no getting around that.

You are acknowledging a ratio and the rules have not for adamantine, cold iron, mithral, or darkwood, but they did for alchemical silver (at least acknowledged a ratio exists with ateel). The description themselves state a weapon made from adamantine or an item made from mithral, they have determined these are unique metals, not alloys, they have also not mentioned any item made from those materials to be crafted with steel or anything else. So no I have no house rule for a ratio, because as it is read, one is not required.

Rjenkins wrote:

Gauss wrote:

At no point have I made any statement of the ratio. You have done so repeatedly.

There is nothing in the rules that states it one way or another and yet you continually assume that it does.

Put another way, you have yet to show anything that states the ratio is 100%, 50%, or anything. There is nothing in the rules that says that one way or another and because of that you are in GM fiat/house rule territory.

I don't care if you are in GM fiat/house rule territory. Not a big deal to me. But ALL of the problems you are having with this section of rules is stemming from you reading something into the rules that does not exist and then trying to break down items into constituent parts (another example of making a house rule).

If an item is "made of steel," "made of bone," is it not treated as made 100% from steel or bone not counting some handles or small components? When it says in the description of both adamantine and mithral state items made from blank not be treated any differently? Mithral clearly states that armor made from Mithral weighs half as much of armors made from other metals. Alchemical silver on the other hand clearly states it is bonded to steel, something neither adamantine or mithral has in its description, I am pretty sure an item is made 100% made from a special material unless otherwise noted based on wording and then stating when something is combined with steel, so then my greatsword example stands unless you can produce something other than speculation.

I think you're downplaying a lot with "some handles or small components". For example, arrows and spears are principally wood, even though the business end is metal, bone, or whatever.

On the larger topic, they're trying to do at least two things with pricing. One is simulate an economy. Another is offer reasonable tradeoffs for prices for mechanical upgrades. There are places where they go fully one direction (trade goods) and places where there's a hybrid (base...

Not all items have extras, for example adamantine and mithral chain shirts have not other materials in them, a sword is going be mostly one piece of metal, the blade does go through the hilt, handle and into the pummel, ammunition is listed per item, but there is a prcedent set for doing 50 pieces of ammunition at a time, which the price they list per arrow in adamantine would be 50 pieces of ammunition equals the 3000 gold weapon price they slap on to things, all the same the weapon weight does not change for adamantine items, and they do for mithral as stated, so a case could be made for mithral that the wooden pole part of a spear is solid mithral, but once more for adamantine and steel, the bulk of the weight will be from those materials.

Robert Jenkins 953 wrote:

I have yet to contradict myself in a manner you have described,

Since they are your own words, I think otherwise.

Going back, I cannot find the 2nd post I quoted. I think it got deleted by the moderator. I may have mistaken a reply to your post for something you said. Can't tell now. :-)

Robert Jenkins 953 wrote:

But hey I want to run a pure version of the game and my players have found a way to exploit the system. Yay broken rules and values that could be fixed in oh so many ways.

Here is the real problem you have.

Tell your players they are not allowed to break the economy.
Problem solved.

/cevah

Obviously, all the same errors like these should not exist for as many people they have writing these books and developing the game, it is sad they have acknowledged a problem with Mithral and have not taken any steps to fix it.

Again, I am not the one speculating, you are. There is nothing in the rules the states one way or the other.

Anything not in the rules requires GM fiat/house rules. This is normal. The problem here is that you do not understand that you are in GM fiat/house rules territory.

You bring up Steel as an example, do you know the ratio of iron to carbon? Steel is an alloy. The rules do not state what the amount of iron in steel is.

The point here is that when the rules are silent you can either operate with exactly as written (the rules that state the prices for various different types of equipment) or you can make up your own rules.

You are houseruling things twice.
1) You are assigning a ratio of special materials to non-special materials.
This is not in the rules, therefore is a house rule.

2) You are allowing people to break things down on a per pound basis rather than the quoted prices.
This is also not in the rules and therefore is a house rule.

I don't care that you are using house rules, but you cannot continue to claim that they are rules as written and then claim that the rules as written are broken because of your house rules.

Did you not see that iron per pound costs 1sp, you could use 60 pounds of iron if need be to get 1 pound of steel and still not have any issues crafting a dagger, carbon is a freebie since it is part of the process in making steel, iron is so insignificant of a price that it is irrelevant in crafting, as is wood and leather. Once more you are citing nothing saying a special material item like an adamantine greatsword has a non special material like steel in it, the description says an item made from adamantine, not adamantine infused steel, or adamantine bonded steel as it does with the alchemical silver special material. Which was written alphabetically after adamantine and a couple spots in front of mithral, you would think if they wanted it mixed with a lesser metal, they woukd state so like they do with alchemical silver. I do realize I am the gm, this should not be an area needing a gm to make a ruling there are so many easy fixes to the rules in place to fix what they have, they should apend a day thinking it over and writing a correction. Also once more I am not letting people craft thi gs by pound, nowhere in the adamanti e greatsword example do they start with a per pound method, they follow the rules as they are written, in a critique of the final product they crafted, it is a 3.18 pound greatsword less than half the weight it should be. How are you not understanding that? The weapons are not made from adamantine alloy, an alloy is a blend of various metals, adamantine is clearly a metal mined fron rocks that fell from the heavens.

Rule 3 ofthe craft skill states to spend 1/3 the items price in raw materials to craft the item. You cannot buy enough raw material to craft any item from mithral, adamantine, cold iron, or Darkwood (you almost can with darkwood, they have to triple the cost the darkwood per pound of a darkwood item to make it work), following the craft rule you can not obtain enough of the raw material for 1/3 of the finished items price. They could solve the problem easily by removing the price per pound of those four items, then there is no room to determine how much of the special material you do or dont have.

At no point have I made any statement of the ratio. You have done so repeatedly.

There is nothing in the rules that states it one way or another and yet you continually assume that it does.

Put another way, you have yet to show anything that states the ratio is 100%, 50%, or anything. There is nothing in the rules that says that one way or another and because of that you are in GM fiat/house rule territory.

I don't care if you are in GM fiat/house rule territory. Not a big deal to me. But ALL of the problems you are having with this section of rules is stemming from you reading something into the rules that does not exist and then trying to break down items into constituent parts (another example of making a house rule).

If an item is "made of steel," "made of bone," is it not treated as made 100% from steel or bone not counting some handles or small components? When it says in the description of both adamantine and mithral state items made from blank not be treated any differently? Mithral clearly states that armor made from Mithral weighs half as much of armors made from other metals. Alchemical silver on the other hand clearly states it is bonded to steel, something neither adamantine or mithral has in its description, I am pretty sure an item is made 100% made from a special material unless otherwise noted based on wording and then stating when something is combined with steel, so then my greatsword example stands unless you can produce something other than speculation.

You have yet to still produce anything saying an adamantite weapon is not solid adamantine, or that the adamantine is combined with lesser metals for any of these items. Same for mithral, produce that and I will shut up. I may have taken one of those things out of context, but you have pulled something unfounded out of thin air and paraded it around as fact when it is nothing but your own personal speculation. Where if from anything do you figure that adamantine is combined with steel? Just answer that citing anything.

Robert Jenkins 953 wrote:

Citing pages in the ultimate equipment book, page 48 says that special material items must be prevalently made from one special material to gain the effect. You can search the definition of prevalent if you like but that should mean at least 50%, then the same page it lists adamantine and it says word for word items normally made from steel, made of adamantine have... An indication once more that it is not made of steel.

Table 2-11 on page 93 lists the price values of trade good per pound, including Iron, leather, adamantine, gold, silver, bronze, and mithral.

The same page beneath that table it lists the process for turning ore into ingots for all raw materials and that the price given in the above table is indeed for the pure product of any ore needed to produce the said trade good.

Going back to the description for adamantine, it says it is mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, no mention of being an alloy or combined with steel. If they simply delete that table or the prices for adamantine and or mithral, my entire issue becomes significantly lessened to just Mithral having a per pound price for non armor and the chain shirt example or any piece of armor exampke being a waste of value from a trade item.

You really like to read out of context. Lets supply the actual quote shall we?

Ultimate Equipment p48 wrote:

If you make a suit of armor or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.

Wow, that doesn't mean what you think it does AT ALL!

What it means is if it has more than one special material you only get the benefit from ONE of the materials, the one that is most prevalent.

Nothing in that rule states what the ratio of special material to non-special material is. You have misread it.

You have yet to still produce anything saying an adamantite weapon is not solid adamantine, or that the adamantine is combined with lesser metals for any of these items. Same for mithral, produce that and I will shut up. I may have taken one of those things out of context, but you have pulled something unfounded out of thin air and parade it around as fact when it is nothing but your own personal speculation. Where if from anything do you figure that adamantine is combined with steel? Just answer that citing anything.