What is the threat range of a flame blade?


Rules Questions

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I would be slightly hesitant to allow the trident to be thrown as thats stopping wielding but sure on the rest of it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I reckon when you throw the trident you get one shot.

One shot.


SmiloDan wrote:

I reckon when you throw the trident you get one shot.

One shot.

I'd buy that for an acorn

Liberty's Edge

N N 959 wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:


It is a spell, those normally have a 20/x2 unless specifically detailed otherwise. All the spell description does is state [b]wielded[/i] as. It doesn't say "treat this spell effect as a scimitar for all purposes" there is a distinct difference between those two. And there are spells and effects that do that unlike this one.

When I "wield" a defending weapon, it means I attack with it to gain the bonus. That is the games "definition" of wielding. It has nothing at all to do with the statistics of the weapon.

By stating it is "wielded" as a scimitar that means the spell effect has possible drawback of non proficiency penalties, as well as being able to benefit from spells/feats/abilities that would provide bonuses to said weapon.The game rules haven't told us to use the weapon specifications of a scimitar, and as it is an exception based rule set, we just do the bare minimum of what they tell us to. And as we have Dev explanation of what "wielded" means in context of the game, suggesting that the spell has stats of the weapon is actually going far beyond what the spell states it does.

Having no a priori opinion on this, I read the above as rock solid logic. The functional purpose of the language "wield as" is necessary to enable the caster to benefit from any feats/abilities that enhance the scimitar. As others have pointed out, the classes that have this spell have scimitars proficiency. So if your druid has a number of feats that boost your scimitar effectiveness, flame blade allows you to leverage them. But there's no symmetry required. Just because it can be wielded as a scimitar does not mean it functions the same as a scimitar, as is evidenced by the d8 damage instead of the d6.

Since d8 - 18-20/x2 is not consistent with any other one-handed martial weapon, I would expect that this would be called out if intended.

That fact that other spells call out crit ranges and the Mythic version calls out the crit range is an affirmation.

On the other hand 1d8 - 18-20/x2 is exactly what a follower of Sarenrae get as a Spiritual weapon. Same spell level.

So "is not consistent with any other one-handed martial weapons" isn't really a useful argument.
The mythic version can be a clarification or what the spell already give or a improvement.

Without a Developer input both interpretations are valid.


Diego Rossi wrote:
On the other hand 1d8 - 18-20/x2 is exactly what a follower of Sarenrae get as a Spiritual weapon. Same spell level.

This observation actually works against you. As I'm sure you know, here's what is written in the spell,

Spiritual Weapon wrote:
The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form.

As others have pointed out, the spells that intended for the magical weapon to have a crit range other than 20x2, state this without ambiguity.

Quote:
So "is not consistent with any other one-handed martial weapons" isn't really a useful argument.

And yet, the statement stands as being valid because the exceptions are actually called out. Since we don't normally see a d8 18-20x2 weapon, the authors explicitly tell us when we do.

Quote:
The mythic version can be a clarification or what the spell already give or a improvement.

Can you show me another example of a Mythic spell repeating something we already knew was true, but was not stated, for the non-mythic version?

Liberty's Edge

Bless: Each ally gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls
Mythic Bless: The +1 morale bonus applies on attack rolls,...

So it repeat know information without problems.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Bless: Each ally gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls

Mythic Bless: The +1 morale bonus applies on attack rolls,...

So it repeat know information without problems.

Uh...no.

First, I said the Mythic rules tells us something we already know is true, but is not stated in the non-mythic. Because this is what you're claiming is true for flame blade. So you failed that test because the non-mythic bless tells us there is a +1 bonus. Or to use your own words, the Mythic version of Bless isn't a "clarification" of Bless, because we already know that Bless gives a +1 on those things. So the Mythic Bless version isn't clarifying anything, which is what you assert that the Mythic flame blade is doing.

Second, the Mythic Bless expands the bonus..

PRD - Mythic Bless wrote:
The +1 morale bonus applies on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and all saving throws.

Mythic Bless is giving the exhaustive list of what it affected, which is more than what non-mythic Bless affects. So there is a need to make sure people know exactly what is benefited.

So no, you didn't find what I asked.


It is my opinion that the spell creates a flaming item that the caster wields as a scimitar, but it is not a scimitar, actually clearly says it is a blade-like beam, not at all it ever says it is a "scimitar".

Also note the specific "as a"; we argued many times about what those words imply, and its limitations.

On the other hand, we all know that spells do what they say they do, nothing else, nothing less. If nothing is said, we have to assume some default values, like on the ray spells without critical threat range specification, we assume it is 20-20/x2, no matter if the spell description says it is a diamond burst, a flaming line or whatever -and again, this whatever includes a "blade-lie beam"-.

Having the mythic and empowered mythic version specify a different threat range in every step, further implies that the critical range is 20/x2.

All in all, I agree that maybe the intention of the designers could be different, but we should not rule basing on our expectations, but on what it is written instead. Adding words to the written rules -such as "this blade-like beam has a critical threat range of a scimitar"- is not the best option. The only thing we know about that beam is that you wield it "as a scimitar".


BigDTBone wrote:
As far as a priori goes this is sound and solid logic. However, pathfinder didn't start tabula rasa. It carried a bunch of baggage with it from previous versions of the game. In this case, the "wield as" language comes from an edition of the game before threat range, or feats existed. In that game, "wield as" meant "the same as."

Hard to say. Though 1e had no feats, it did have weapon proficiencies. If you lacked the weapon proficiency in scimitar, presumably, you'd suffer the non-proficiency penalty trying to use the flame blade. It also clearly didn't have the stats of a regular scimitar since it did 1d4+4 damage rather than 1d8.

Does the "wield as if it were a scimitar" construction mean that you were also to apply the weapon vs armor modifiers? I don't think the spell description gives any more firm a clue than the one in Pathfinder.


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Hey, what's good for the Flame Blade is good for the Trident, IMO. Let them throw it, brace it...whatever.

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