you know all of this could be solved if PFS just added captured/looted spellbooks to chronicles.
perhaps the title of this tread should have been something like...
"Can we have Mechanics for non-wizards to loot/buy spell books?"
I just made one here I set it up as a rules question, if you don't mind FAQing it, I would appreciate it. At the very least it would be nice to get more spells books added to future chronical sheets.
lol... seeBy Stephen's reading above, most of the non ritual versions of the spellbooks in Ultimate Magic would be legal.except for this sticky wicket from the additional resources page.
Other: No content from Chapter 2 is legal for play except new familiars; Words of Power are also forbidden.The last paragraph in Always Available Items would open up any spellbook NOT in the CRB so long as it's available through the Additional Resources listing.
I will have to look at my Ultimate Magic when I get home, I may have erroneously assumed that they were in a different chapter.
The additional resources entry for Ultimate Magic is written as what is not legal, is it assumed that the rest is legal?
I think it must be otherwise the Magus would not be legal.
Most entries have something along the lines of Ultimate Combat's
All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below. Some rules elements are legal but function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as described.
One strict reading would be that almost nothing from Ultimate Magic is legal, including the Magus.
I'm still curious as to why you'd want to buy the book in the first place. On the surface it seems a frivolous purchase. (and I support frivolity in a fantasy role playing game where at times it's all too ummm... efficient).
I have a sorcerer with the Versatile Spontenaity feat and an Oracle with the Arcane Archivist revelation
It came to my attention that they may not be able to make their own spellbooks with spellcraft like I thought they could. I am trying to find a rules compliant way of making their abilities relevant.
The Lore oracle has a blessed book with multiple copies of spells to keep the cost of their erasures down. (He at least had a wizard in the party to fill it for him).
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I'm still curious as to why you'd want to buy the book in the first place. On the surface it seems a frivolous purchase. (and I support frivolity in a fantasy role playing game where at times it's all too ummm... efficient).
I have a sorcerer with the Versatile Spontenaity feat and an Oracle with the Arcane Archivist revelation
It came to my attention that they may not be able to make their own spellbooks with spellcraft like I thought they could. I am trying to find a rules compliant way of making their abilities relevant.
The Lore oracle has a blessed book with multiple copies of spells to keep the cost of their erasures down. (He at least had a wizard in the party to fill it for him).
but... (in PFS) a wizard can't scribe spells into another persons spell book, only into his own. (is this Lore oracle a PFS character or in a home game?)
for example, Tweedle-Dum owns a Blessed Book with a large number of spells that he scribed in. So if Twee were to join a group with another wizard, he would offer his book. Say the other wizard then flubs his roll and can't understand Cloudkill. Twee can't just say... "heck, let me just scribe it into these pages on your book, and later you can try it again...". Because it's not Twee's book, it's the other (real) wizard's book, and the rule says that a Wizard can scribe "spells to his book".
The lore oracle is PFS, I did Emerald Spire with him. I would have a wizard barrow my book and scribe spells into it when he was in the party. Seeing now that I may have had a misunderstanding of the rules, I am looking for potential remedies that keep the original intent of the characters.
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The lore oracle is PFS, I did Emerald Spire with him. I would have a wizard barrow my book and scribe spells into it when he was in the party. Seeing now that I may have had a misunderstanding of the rules, I am looking for potential remedies that keep the original intent of the characters.
if you are still adventuring with the wizard, why not just get him to scribe an extra book? then he can loan it to you each time he is sitting at your table (or loan it to other PCs when he is at their table).
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The lore oracle is PFS, I did Emerald Spire with him. I would have a wizard barrow my book and scribe spells into it when he was in the party. Seeing now that I may have had a misunderstanding of the rules, I am looking for potential remedies that keep the original intent of the characters.if you are still adventuring with the wizard, why not just get him to scribe an extra book? then he can loan it to you each time he is sitting at your table (or loan it to other PCs when he is at their table).
That's like the one time I've actually heard of the lore oracle's revelation being able to be used in an unambiguously legal way in PFS. Wizard and oracle adventuring together through level 11 (planning to do Eyes together as well). The wizard bought a Blessed Book and scribed TWO copies of each spell in the Book. After he prepped in the morning he would hand it to the oracle.
Wonder what happened to them...
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I'm still curious as to why you'd want to buy the book in the first place. On the surface it seems a frivolous purchase. (and I support frivolity in a fantasy role playing game where at times it's all too ummm... efficient).
I have a sorcerer with the Versatile Spontenaity feat and an Oracle with the Arcane Archivist revelation
It came to my attention that they may not be able to make their own spellbooks with spellcraft like I thought they could. I am trying to find a rules compliant way of making their abilities relevant.
The Lore oracle has a blessed book with multiple copies of spells to keep the cost of their erasures down. (He at least had a wizard in the party to fill it for him).
but... (in PFS) a wizard can't scribe spells into another persons spell book, only into his own. (is this Lore oracle a PFS character or in a home game?)
for example, Tweedle-Dum owns a Blessed Book with a large number of spells that he scribed in. So if Twee were to join a group with another wizard, he would offer his book. Say the other wizard then flubs his roll and can't understand Cloudkill. Twee can't just say... "heck, let me just scribe it into these pages on your book, and later you can try it again...". Because it's not Twee's book, it's the other (real) wizard's book, and the rule says that a Wizard can scribe "spells to his book".
And said sequence is unneeded, as well:
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
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I'm still curious as to why you'd want to buy the book in the first place. On the surface it seems a frivolous purchase. (and I support frivolity in a fantasy role playing game where at times it's all too ummm... efficient).
I have a sorcerer with the Versatile Spontenaity feat and an Oracle with the Arcane Archivist revelation
It came to my attention that they may not be able to make their own spellbooks with spellcraft like I thought they could. I am trying to find a rules compliant way of making their abilities relevant.
The Lore oracle has a blessed book with multiple copies of spells to keep the cost of their erasures down. (He at least had a wizard in the party to fill it for him).
but... (in PFS) a wizard can't scribe spells into another persons spell book, only into his own. (is this Lore oracle a PFS character or in a home game?)
for example, Tweedle-Dum owns a Blessed Book with a large number of spells that he scribed in. So if Twee were to join a group with another wizard, he would offer his book. Say the other wizard then flubs his roll and can't understand Cloudkill. Twee can't just say... "heck, let me just scribe it into these pages on your book, and later you can try it again...". Because it's not Twee's book, it's the other (real) wizard's book, and the rule says that a Wizard can scribe "spells to his book".
I think that may be taking the rules a little too literally. PFS has no specific rules involving what book a wizard may scribe a spell into and Pathfinder in general does not care whose name the bill of sale is in, as ownership is typically more a matter of who is holding the item.
That somehow it matters who purchased a piece of paper and thus restricts who may write on it... just seems a bit out of place in the rules of the game.
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Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
This is the language from the Magic section of the CRB that discusses wizard spellbooks. I have quoted only the relevant text. The PFS FAQ references back to this section with relation to scribing.
This section talks about how a wizard might duplicate or replace a spellbook. The same procedure for adding a spell to your own spellbook is used for copying the spell into any spellbook. Alternatively, a wizard can transcribe a prepared spell into a spellbook losing the prepared spell as if they had cast it.
For PFS, it is my interpretation that if a character purchases a spellbook without the spellbook class feature, they can have a party wizard scribe the spell into their spellbook with the appropriate scribe cost paid by the spellbook owner. If the situation arose at my table where there was no wizard for scribing into the spellbook, I would charge the player scribe cost plus spellcasting services for the appropriate level of the spell.
As stated in the CRB, quoted above, a player can also effectively purchase the spellbook of another player at the table for the cost of a blank spellbook, plus half the scribing cost for all the spells contained within.
However, do note that spells written by another spellcaster must first be deciphered (via Spellcraft or Read Magic), and preparing a spell from any source not written by you directly requires another Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) every time you prepare the spell by referencing that source. This is also covered in the Magic section of the CRB.
As stated in the CRB, quoted above, a player can also effectively purchase the spellbook of another player at the table for the cost of a blank spellbook, plus half the scribing cost for all the spells contained within.Players can't sell other players items.
I don't think that was what he was saying. He said "effectively purchase", by that he meant get a copy of the spellbook at a certain price.
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so, if I buy the flasks can pay the costs associated with creating them, can I have an alchemist in the party create Acid Flasks for me (and add them to my ITS)?
How about Vials of Anti-Toxin? Or Poison? I'd be willing to pay the cost associated with creating it.
No? Then why can I get him to write spells (formula) into "my formula book" and add that to my ITS?
Heck, I have the ranks in Craft Alchemy myself, why can't I just create it myself? I'll scribe spells to his spellbook (I've got a level of wizard, so there is no question I can create a spellbook - just whether I can create them for a different PC), and he can make some alchemical items for me.
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so, if I buy the flasks can pay the costs associated with creating them, can I have an alchemist in the party create Acid Flasks for me (and add them to my ITS)?
How about Vials of Anti-Toxin? Or Poison? I'd be willing to pay the cost associated with creating it.
No? Then why can I get him to write spells (formula) into "my formula book" and add that to my ITS?
Heck, I have the ranks in Craft Alchemy myself, why can't I just create it myself? I'll scribe spells to his spellbook (I've got a level of wizard, so there is no question I can create a spellbook - just whether I can create them for a different PC), and he can make some alchemical items for me.
Because the ability to do that is limited to characters with the Alchemy class feature, per the PFS FAQ. Just as poisons are limited to be purchased by characters with the Poison Use class feature.
The exchanging spells in spellbooks section of the PFS FAQ does not make the distinction that only characters with the Spellbook class feature may make the exchange. There is a distinction made that the rules utilize both the CRB and their class descriptions, but if a class lacks that descriptive text, I would default to the guidelines of the CRB - not exclude the class entirely.
Players are welcome to exchange spells with each other during an adventure. They must still follow all the normal rules as put forth in the Core Rulebook and their class descriptions (for instance, an alchemist can scribe from a wizard, but not vice-versa) and they must not bog the session down.
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As stated in the CRB, quoted above, a player can also effectively purchase the spellbook of another player at the table for the cost of a blank spellbook, plus half the scribing cost for all the spells contained within.Players can't sell other players items.
Player's do not "sell" to one another, correct. But the player adding the spells to their spellbook must still pay the scribing cost - this goes towards materials used and not to the other player's pocket. In this instance the purchasing player makes all of the expenditures to get a copy of the other player's spellbook and the other player gets nothing.
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I don't think it needs an additional FAQ as the process is already well defined in the CRB and pulled in by the existing PFRPGGG and FAQ.
It's really just discussing what in the process is legal in PFS organized play and how to go about it.
As Justin and I pointed out the materials point back to the CRB for guidance.I know some people feel that this is letting something in and squeeking forward the power creep. This process has been in there since the AD&D days. The words "magic" and "spells" throw alarm bells. It's one of the reasons I stressed the word "mundane" in my posts. A first or second level spellbook page(s) are going to be 5-15gp and 20-60gp respectively and don't give the character any ability to cast those spells or even read what's on the page. This is why I referred to it as crazy wizard scribblings as for most classes that's exactly what it is.
Exactly this. A fighter without an ability to case prepared spells from a spellbook is not going to gain anything by having a spell book. So, why would you want to further adjust the rules to prevent them from getting one? It does not harm the game in the slightest.
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Hmm... Wizard's spell books aren't mundane items if they contain spells:
A book thief’s satchel can’t transfer magical writing (such as the pages of a wizard’s spellbook, a magical scroll, or a wondrous item). Attempts to do so fail immediately, neither erasing the book to be copied nor copying any of the pages to the blank book.
Just my two copper on the tracks to derail the train.
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Hmm... Wizard's spell books aren't mundane items if they contain spells:
A book thief’s satchel can’t transfer magical writing (such as the pages of a wizard’s spellbook, a magical scroll, or a wondrous item). Attempts to do so fail immediately, neither erasing the book to be copied nor copying any of the pages to the blank book.Just my two copper on the tracks to derail the train.
Whether or not a wizard's spell book is magical with writing in it or not does not change whether you can buy an empty spell book. Nor does it change whether one player or NPC can scribe a spell into said spell book.
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No, it is still purchasable as a blank, but had been repeatedly mentioned as a mundane item even if it has spells. I wasn't saying it wasn't possible to purchase blank ones, but up the thread people had been talking about the ability to purchase ones looted despite not appearing on chronicles, as even if filled it was still a mundane item. By a strict reading of the adding spells to spellbook text mentioned earlier, not even Magi or Alchemists could add spells in PFS play, despite the presence of the spellbook (and Formula book) class features. I personally have no issue with this, not seeing it as banned. I view the wording of Wizard to describe the adding spells to spell books chapter to be an indication of the character performing the act, with a wizard being the most likely candidate to do so. Indeed, I am reminded of when people were claiming because the grammar from the arcanist that arcanists could only use spells from the CRB.