Subtier-Rules for APLs between Subtiers (Seasons 4-7)

[Blackbot]

Hi,

Given the APL of a six-player-group is between two subtiers (e.g. APL 3 in a Tier 1-5) but no character is actually in the higher subtier (e.g. six level-3-characters), do they have to play in Subtier 4-5 with 4-player-adjustment or can they decide to play the lower subtier? (Rule is clear for seasons 0-3, no clarification needed there)

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, p. 33 wrote:

In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.

It is unclear whether this statement applies only to seasons 0-3 (because it's located in the season 0-3 paragraph) or to all seasons.

This has been discussed at length at several places, but to my knowledge no FAQ thread has been started yet. Feel free to mark this as an FAQ candidate.

[Dragnmoon]

That whole paragraph applies to season 0-3 only.

[Blackbot]

So you say. Other VLs and VCs say it should apply to everything.
I'm with you on this one, but the mere fact that this discussion comes up again and again should be reason enough to write it down into the FAQ or put it into the Guide itself.

[Ascalaphus]

Quoted fully for proper context:

Quote:

Determining Subtiers

In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group
of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party
level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by
the number of characters in the party. You should always
round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at
0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.

Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six
characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.

For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is
in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must
play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters
must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there
are no players that are high enough to have reached the
subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.

Given the placement of the text, inside a paragraph that only discusses S0-3, it clearly doesn't apply to any other season.

The real question is whether it's meant to be that way or if this is a textual oversight. FAQ'd.

[Blackbot]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Given the placement of the text, inside a paragraph that only discusses S0-3, it clearly doesn't apply to any other season.

The real question is whether it's meant to be that way or if this is a textual oversight. FAQ'd.

That's exactly what I mean and how I read it too. But you could make the argument that since Seasons 0-3 were written for 4 players in mind anyways it does not make any sense to handle them differently than Seasons 4-7 (the 4-player-adjustment is the "default" anyways, so to speak).

[Andrew L Klein]

Sure you could make that argument, but then you'd be pointed to the above quoted portion where it says they are. Whether it makes sense to handle them differently aside, it states that you do. That's the important part.

[Preston Hudson]

I have always understood that the last paragraph only applied to Seasons 0-3 as Seasons 4+ have the 4 players adjustment to somewhat balance things out in game when you have that fringe case. I could be wrong in my reasoning as I could not read the mind of the person who wrote the original paragraph and ascertain their true intention.

[Ascalaphus]

Preston Hudson wrote:

I have always understood that the last paragraph only applied to Seasons 0-3 as Seasons 4+ have the 4 players adjustment to somewhat balance things out in game when you have that fringe case. I could be wrong in my reasoning as I could not read the mind of the person who wrote the original paragraph and ascertain their true intention.

I suspect the same.

What it comes down to is this;

1) What does the text actually say? (only 0-3)
2) What did the author mean? (Quite possibly only 0-3, but it could have also been an oversight.)
3) What does the reader believe it should say? (Many many answers here.)

In the case where it's highly plausible that 1 and 2 are the same, we should stick to that in practice, although you can always ask for clarification. But just because 1 and 3 can differ doesn't mean every paragraph needs to be signed "Yes, we really did mean it that way!"

[The Fox]

I've said it before...the APL system for subtiers needs serious work.

A group of six players, levels {7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9}, play a 7-11 in Season 3, they have an APL of 8.67. They must play up. They potentially face a CR 15 fight. Bye bye level 7. It was nice knowing you.

Now another player comes along and wants to play. They decide to let him join the table. He has a level 7 also. Now the APL is 8.42, so they must play down.

Bigger parties are stronger than smaller parties.

It is a poorly constructed system.

[Ascalaphus]

I've said so before, but I think a flowchart in the Guide would be an asset. People have a lot of trouble parsing that text. Showing the subtier determination algorithm in a flowchart would make it easier on them.

[Belafon]

I have also always read it as applying only to seasons 0-3. But I would be more than happy to see a clarification expanding it to all seasons. The last two 5-9 scenarios I have played (seasons 6 and 7) have clocked in at APL 6.6 (5 players, no one above 7). Up with 4-player adjustment. Both resulted in a near TPK (4 out of 5 characters dead each time).

I don't think it would actually hurt anything to let the players choose in this scenario. If they choose to play up there's no difference from the current interpretation. If they choose to play down it might be a little easier but it won't be overwhelmingly easy.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm in favor of extending the rule to current seasons. I think the current rule is not ideal. 4-player adjustments aren't always well-done and are often "leave the high CR boss in place but remove some mooks". That's fine for the smaller high-level party, but not at all fine for the party forced to play up.

[Thamius]

The Fox wrote:

A group of six players, levels {7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9}, play a 7-11 in Season 3, they have an APL of 8.67. They must play up. They potentially face a CR 15 fight. Bye bye level 7. It was nice knowing you.

Correction needed. Per the discussion, since your example calls it out as Season 3 then the party has the option of playing down to the 7-8 sub-tier because none of the characters are in the 10-11 sub-tier. This is an example of the fringe case in a Season 0-3 scenario.

Now, if this party was playing a Season 4+ scenario, they would be forced to play up to sub-tier 10-11, but with the 4-man adjustment.

That said, I would be in favor of extending the "fringe case solution" to all seasons. In Seasons 4+, that means the example 6-character party would have the option of playing down at full difficulty or playing up at the 4 man difficulty.