| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJn1LjLaNVQ
Unlike the poorly made Acrobatic archetype and related rogue talents this will allow for a thematically acrobatic rogue that actually has applicable abilities. I would really appreciate some critiques.
Acrobat
Acrobatic Maneuvers: An acrobat is able to use his agility to perform skilled combat maneuvers on opponents. Dirty Trick, Disarm, and Trip attempts can all be used with great skill by an acrobat. He may apply his acrobatics skill bonus instead of his combat maneuver bonus to these checks. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Extreme Agility: At 3rd level an acrobat has learned to hone his agility in new ways. An Acrobat who has selected Dodge also gains a +1 bonus to acrobatic skill checks and an additional +1 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. An Acrobat who has selected Mobility gains the +4 bonus to all attacks of opportunity. In addition to these feat synergies he gains a flat +1 bonus to acrobatics skill checks and to dodge bonuses to AC against attacks of opportunity. These flat bonuses increase by 1 at 6th level and every three levels thereafter. This ability replaces trap sense.
Rogue Talents:
Maneuver Training: A rogue with this ability is treated as having combat expertise and Improved (Any Maneuver) for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites despite not possessing these feats or their benefits.
Advantageous Get Up: A Rogue with this talent may make a DC 20 Acrobatics check to get up from prone as a move action. When doing so he may choose to make an attack as part of the action in which his opponent will count as flanked.
Whirling Tripping Get Up: A Rogue with this talent may as a full round action may make a trip attempt against all adjacent opponents by succeeding on an acrobatic check equal to the highest CMD of the opponents +2 for each additional opponent. He gains a +5 on this attempt if he starts prone or opts to fall prone after doing so. The rogue must possess Advantageous Get Up to use this talent.
Acrobatic Dodge: A rogue with this ability may, once per round, dodge an attack. When dodging an attack the acrobat expends an attack of opportunity to role an acrobatics check. If the result of this check exceeds the attack roll by 5 or more against the acrobat then the attack misses. This ability may not be used if the acrobat is flat footed.
Dodging Momentum: A rogue with this talent may, after succeeding on an Acrobatic Dodge and another acrobatics check against the attackers CMD, expend another attack of opportunity to either make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (In which your opponent is counted as flanked) or guide their attack to an adjacent creature to you. If you choose to guide their attack then the opponent uses his attack roll + your dexterity modifier to forcefully hit that opponent. A rogue must posses Acrobatic Dodge to select this talent.
Acrobatic Movement: When traversing difficult terrain the acrobat may attempt a DC 20 Acrobatics check to which success allows the acrobat to treat that patch as normal ground. Also, an acrobat with this ability may charge in non straight directions or bouncing off walls and then gain his dexterity modifier as a bonus to his attack roll instead of the usual +2 and does not suffer an AC penalty.
Wrenching Trip: A Rogue with this ability may, when he succeeds on a trip maneuver, deal his sneak attack damage to the tripped creature. In addition, the rogue may opt to fall down with the foe in order to optimize the force of the fall, this increases the amount of damage added to double his sneak attack damage.
Wrenching Charging Trip: An acrobat with this talent is able to devastate foes that he hurdles into. After succeeding on a successful acrobatic charge against an opponent and hitting with an attack he may make a trip attack against that enemy. If he succeeds he must opt to fall down with the foe and in doing so he may deal triple his sneak attack damage to that foe. A rogue must posses the wrenching trip and acrobatic movement talents to select this talent.
Knockout Trip: An acrobat with this talent can jar the head in a specific way when knocking down an opponent as to create unconsciousness. A rogue must spend an additional attack of opportunity to use this feat. Any who is subject to wrenching trip must roll a fortitude save equal to 10 + Dex Modifier + Number of Sneak Dice rolled and if he fails lies falls unconscious for 1 round. If the foe fails by 5 or more he instead lies unconscious for 1 minute and if by 10 or more, 1 hour. If the attack was a critical hit then the knockout DC increases by 5. A rogue must posses Wrenching trip to use this ability.
Brutal Precision: When an acrobat with this talent succeeds on a combat maneuver he has learned to bend body parts in the wrong ways. If he succeeds on a Trip, Disarm, or Dirty Trick Combat maneuvers he deals damage to the subject equal to his dexterity modifier.
Opportunistic: A rogue with this talent has learned to make use of circumstances to his greatest possible benefit. All prone foes are treated as if they are flanked when attacked by the acrobat. The acrobat may make 1 additional attack of opportunity each turn (Stacks with Combat Reflexes).
Reactionary Opportunist: A rogue with this talent may now make 2 additional attacks of opportunity each turn. Whenever a Rogue with this talent is attacked, whether or not the attack was dodged he may make an attack of opportunity if he makes an acrobatics check that exceeds the opponent's CMD. In addition a Rogue with this talent may use Acrobatic Dodge any number of times per round but must exceed the second attack role by 10 or more, the third by 15 or more etc. A rogue must posses Opportunist, Acrobatic Dodge, and Dodging Momentum to use this talent.
Versatile Acrobatics: A rogue with this talent may use his acrobatics skill modifier for all reflex saves, climb, escape artist, fly, perform, and ride checks. In addition he doubles his check for acrobatics when used for jumping (Also applies to Wrenching Charging Trip and Acrobatic movement). A rogue with this talent may select Skill Focus (Acrobatics) twice and have the effects stack.
|
Hi Syrio
I like the idea of improving acrobatics. I feel it is underutilized as a combat mechanism, but I think that several of the rogue talents need retuning or at least making them advanced talents.
Wrenching trip- when the rogue opts to fall with adversary, if the rogue takes sneak attack damage too, this is powered ok, otherwise this is way overpowered. At 20th level, if successful, you follow up with wrenching trip up every round for 20d6 damage- not to mention your entire party attacks a prone creature. I think you need to close the loop, or at least make this a very high level talent combo. How about the rogue doesn't take damage and gets a bonus to damage = str/dex mod*sneak attack die/3
Wrenching charging trip- how about maximized sneak attack damage instead of triple, obviously this cannot be looped with other talents.
Versatile acrobatics- this should probably be a series of feats not one talent.
1) A rogue already has good reflex saves, as written this would be a prime dip ability for someone like a tank-especially as they can use it in tandem with evasion. A strength based fighter would not have to spend a lot of skill points to get serious benefit out of this, and they get sneak attack damage.
2) I cannot see a thematic reason to replace Escape Artist with acrobatics. Escape Artist is about getting out of tight constricting spaces (or grips), acrobatics is about movement. If you want it as a grapple defense, add half your acrobatics modifier to the CMD vs grapple
3) I would split it up and give the player the option of selecting two of the remaining four skills to replace with Acrobatics skill modifier, and enable the talent to be selected twice
Thank you for commenting, I haven't quite balanced all of the abilities yet and I understand how quickly wrenching trip could be abused. Instead of double sneak attack how about Normal Sneak Attack + Dex + Str(To help dissuade complete dumping)? What do you think about the dodging mechanics? Knockout Trip? Get Up?
The math for many of these abilities is really, really off. For example, the math of using your Acrobatics skill in place of CMB is broken. You're dealing with very different numbers that are calculated differently. Skills are also much easier to max than CMB. At the very least, I recommend changing this ability to allow you to use your ranks in Acrobatics in place of your BAB.
Versatile Acrobatics is less like a Rogue Talent, and more like the capstone for a prestige class or the end of a feat chain.
Cyrad, I know what you are thinking, but the non-unchained rogue is already terrible compared to other classes. Giving it one ability that seems a little in unbalanced is ok if it means making a sucky class viable.
Ciaran Barnes, I took out the ability and incorporated some of the less powerful parts into other tricks.
Here is my current revised version:
I modified a few of the tricks and I am not sure which should be advanced talents yet.
The Idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJn1LjLaNVQ
Unlike the poorly made Acrobatic archetype and related rogue talents this will allow for a thematically acrobatic rogue that actually has applicable abilities.
Acrobat
Acrobatic Maneuvers: An acrobat is able to use his agility to perform skilled combat maneuvers on opponents. Dirty Trick, Disarm, and Trip attempts can all be used with great skill by an acrobat. He may apply his acrobatics skill bonus instead of his combat maneuver bonus to these checks. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Extreme Agility: At 3rd level an acrobat has learned to hone his agility in new ways. An Acrobat who has selected Dodge also gains a +1 bonus to acrobatic skill checks and an additional +1 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. An Acrobat who has selected Mobility gains the +4 bonus to all attacks of opportunity. An Acrobat who has selected Combat Reflexes is treated as having combat expertise and Improved (Any Maneuver) for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites despite not possessing these feats or their benefits. Acrobats may select Skill Focus(acrobatics) twice and the effects stack. In addition to these feat synergies he gains a flat +1 bonus to acrobatics skill checks and to dodge bonuses to AC against attacks of opportunity. These flat bonuses increase by 1 at 6th level and every three levels thereafter. This ability replaces trap sense.
Rogue Talents:
Advantageous Get Up: A Rogue with this talent may make a DC 20 Acrobatics check to get up from prone as a move action. When doing so he may choose to make an attack as part of the action. If this acrobatics check exceeded the opponent's CMD then opponent will count as flanked against the attack whether or not he actually his.
Whirling Trip: A Rogue with this talent may as a full round action may make a trip attempt against all adjacent opponents by succeeding on an acrobatic check equal to the highest CMD opponent’s CMD +2 for each additional opponent. He gains a +5 on this attempt if he starts prone or opts to fall prone after doing so.
Acrobatic Dodge: A rogue with this ability may, once per round, dodge an attack. When dodging an attack the acrobat expends an attack of opportunity to role an acrobatics check. If the result of this check exceeds the attack roll by 5 or more against the acrobat then the attack misses. This ability may not be used if the acrobat is flat footed.
Dodging Momentum: A rogue with this talent may, after succeeding on an Acrobatic Dodge and another acrobatics check against the attackers CMD, expend another attack of opportunity to either make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (In which your opponent is counted as flanked) or guide their attack to an adjacent creature to you. If you choose to guide their attack then the opponent uses his attack roll + your dexterity modifier to forcefully hit that opponent. A rogue must posses Acrobatic Dodge to select this talent.
Acrobatic Movement: When traversing difficult terrain the acrobat may attempt a DC 20 Acrobatics check to which success allows the acrobat to treat that patch as normal ground. Also, an acrobat with this ability may charge in non straight directions or bouncing off walls and then gain his dexterity modifier as a bonus to his attack roll instead of the usual +2 and does not suffer an AC penalty. In addition to this you gain a +5 on all acrobatics check to move through threatened areas without provoking, move through opponents squares, move on tight spaces, and jump.
Wrenching Trip: A Rogue with this ability may, when he succeeds on a trip maneuver, deal his sneak attack damage to the tripped creature. In addition, the rogue may opt to fall down with the foe in order to optimize the force of the fall, this increases the amount of damage added to his sneak attack damage + Dex Modifier + Str Modifier.
Charging Trip: An acrobat with this talent is able to devastate foes that he hurdles into. After succeeding on a successful acrobatic charge against an opponent and hitting with an attack he may make a trip attack against that enemy. If he succeeds he must opt to fall down with the foe and in doing so he may deal damage to that foe equal to a wrenching trip except the sneak attack dice are maximized. A rogue must posses the wrenching trip and acrobatic movement talents to select this talent.
Knockout Trip: An acrobat with this talent can jar the head in a specific way when knocking down an opponent as to create unconsciousness. A rogue must spend an additional attack of opportunity to use this feat and succeed on an acrobatics check equal to the opponent's CMD. Any who is subject to wrenching trip must roll a fortitude save equal to 10 + Dex Modifier + Str Modifier + Number of Sneak Dice rolled and if he fails lies falls unconscious for 1 round. If the foe fails by 5 or more he instead lies unconscious for 1 minute and if by 10 or more, 1 hour. If the attack was a critical hit then the knockout DC increases by 2 and if used in conjunction with Charging Trip by another 2. A rogue must posses Wrenching trip to use this ability.
Opportunistic: A rogue with this talent has learned to make use of circumstances to his greatest possible benefit. All prone foes are treated as if they are flanked when attacked by the acrobat. Whenever a Rogue with this talent is attacked, whether or not the attack was dodged he may make an attack of opportunity if he makes an acrobatics check that exceeds the opponent's CMD. In addition a Rogue with this talent may use Acrobatic Dodge any number of times per round but must exceed the second attack role by 10 or more, the third by 15 or more etc. A rogue must posses Opportunist, Acrobatic Dodge, and Dodging Momentum to use this talent.
Yes of course. XD
Cyrad, I know what you are thinking, but the non-unchained rogue is already terrible compared to other classes. Giving it one ability that seems a little in unbalanced is ok if it means making a sucky class viable.
It's not merely a matter of balance. Giving a broken ability to a broken class is a terrible approach to fixing them.
Cyrad, So make the CMB for these abilities use ranks in acrobatics and let them use dexterity instead of strength? It just seems underwhelming if you do that. It would be annoyingly challenging to trip things, which this class is fairly reliant on. I feel that if I play it in the way, the class will continue to be sucky. Do you think that playing that way would make for a good, but balanced class?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cyrad, So make the CMB for these abilities use ranks in acrobatics and let them use dexterity instead of strength? It just seems underwhelming if you do that. It would be annoyingly challenging to trip things, which this class is fairly reliant on. I feel that if I play it in the way, the class will continue to be sucky. Do you think that playing that way would make for a good, but balanced class?
First off, using Acrobatics ranks + Dexterity is still a great because it essentially turns a 3/4 BAB class into a full BAB class for combat maneuvers. In addition, it lets you play a Dexterity character that (unlike most Dex characters) doesn't suck at combat maneuvers.
Secondly, I do not consider it a good idea to base any content off of the core rogue. The core rogue is a poorly designed class that needed rebuilt from the ground up. And it got an official rework, so I'm baffled why the archetype aims to "fix" the core rogue in addition to fulfilling the Acrobat concept. I think you're better off making the archetype for the unchained rogue, which has more for you to work with.
Finally, if an archetype/class/whatever needs absurd numbers in order to be fun, then one might want to rethink their design strategy.