Dual-wielding two-handed spears


Rules Questions


So Spear Dancing Spiral allows for you to use quarterstaff feats for the spear. Quarterstaff Master allows you to use a quarterstaff one-handed. That means that with the appropriate feats, you can use a spear in one hand, no? Does that mean that you can dual-wield two-handed spears?

Does that mean you can have a longspear in one hand and a regular spear in the other, and become a crazy reach monster?


I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Most people think you can threaten at multiple ranges with longspear and armor spikes or similar, as long as you're not using them for two-weapon fighting. (And if you are two-weapon fighting, using two non-light weapons that can't attack the same opponent is a pretty impractical way to do it.)

Liberty's Edge

D20PSRD wrote:

Spear Dancing Style (Combat, Style)

You can use polearms and spears as double weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the polearm or spear fighter weapon groups. While using this style, you grant the chosen weapon the double special weapon feature, using the weapon's normal statistics for its main-hand end and the statistics of a light mace for its off-hand end.

A weapon wielded in this way loses the brace and reach special weapon features.

Special: A character with the weapon training (polearms or spears) class feature can use Spear Dancing Style with any polearm or spear, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.

and

D20PSRD wrote:

Spear Dancing Spiral (Combat)

You wield spears with poise and grace.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 15, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category. In addition, you can use any feat or ability that functions with a quarterstaff with your chosen weapon.

Your longspearspear lose the reach ability, so no no, you don't "become a crazy reach monster".

and you still need Weapon Focus (quarterstaff) to qualify for Quarterstaff Master.

Liberty's Edge

Note that Quarterstaff Master say:
"When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon."

and Spear Dancing Style say:
"you grant the chosen weapon the double special weapon feature"

As you are trading away the double weapon feature I would say that you aren't using Spear Dancing Style. The combat styles rules don't say anything about that, so this is a houserule.


If you're in stance you are using the style, and there is nothing stopping a player from using only one end of a double weapon.

The fact also stands that using two spears will incur much harsher TWF peneltys than using a single spear as a double weapon, so there isn't much reason to prevent a player from using the combination, when power isn't a concern


Once the reach bit got shot down, there was 0 reason to use two spears anymore.

With Spiral, this weapon is already a double weapon that can be finessed. That is practically the king of TWF. The ability to go between TWF adn 2 handed is a major advantage.

The only thing that I am left wondering about is whether the weapon's enhancement bonus is applied to both ends (since you normally can't enhance the other end of a spear, since it isn't a double weapon). If that is the case, then this is already giving people a hell of a lot without having to give you reach based TWF (which, for the amount of feats needed to go for that silly path, you might as well grab whips and the feats needed to make those lethal)

Shadow Lodge

Don't forget about the existence of Spear Dancing Reach...

Quote:

You can strike from afar with double weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 17, Spear Dancing Spiral, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style and making a full attack using the chosen weapon as a double weapon, you can grant the reach special weapon feature to one or both of the weapon's ends until the end of your turn as a swift action.

Now it's a reach weapon...A feat intensive and expensive reach weapon that can only be used in full attacks and uses up your swift action, but a reach weapon.

lemeres wrote:
The only thing that I am left wondering about is whether the weapon's enhancement bonus is applied to both ends (since you normally can't enhance the other end of a spear, since it isn't a double weapon). If that is the case, then this is already giving people a hell of a lot without having to give you reach based TWF (which, for the amount of feats needed to go for that silly path, you might as well grab whips and the feats needed to make those lethal)

This I think is the real question.

Scarab Sages

MisterSlanky wrote:

Don't forget about the existence of Spear Dancing Reach...

Quote:

You can strike from afar with double weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 17, Spear Dancing Spiral, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style and making a full attack using the chosen weapon as a double weapon, you can grant the reach special weapon feature to one or both of the weapon's ends until the end of your turn as a swift action.

Now it's a reach weapon...A feat intensive and expensive reach weapon that can only be used in full attacks and uses up your swift action, but a reach weapon.

A reach weapon that cannot be used for reach AoOs. Really, Spear Dancing Reach is just costing a swift action for lunge without an AC penalty. You'd be better off just taking Lunge.


I would assume both ends have the same enhancement bonus in this case, as while it ACTS as a double weapon, it is not actually a double weapon.

Though it could be ruled that the light mace portion of the weapon is not enchanted as it is an effect of a feat, not a property of the weapon, which is what makes a weapon a double weapon. And, all double weapons have each end enchanted separately.

Ahhh the complexities of gaming, gotta love it!

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
GM_Beernorg wrote:
And, all double weapons have each end enchanted separately.

Except when they don't.

Dragoon wrote:
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.

I think this is supposed to work like Dragoon and apply the magic of the weapon to both ends. As written, it does not.


Well, bless my bark, that is rather a useful class ability for this particular discussion, gorram it, now I want to try out this build for the hell of it.

(I had completely forgotten that archetype existed, thanks for the reminder)

(I do need a good villain for the upcoming second chapter of my house game, hmmmmmmm, evil idea brewing!)


Imbicatus wrote:
A reach weapon that cannot be used for reach AoOs. Really, Spear Dancing Reach is just costing a swift action for lunge without an AC penalty. You'd be better off just taking Lunge.

Well, you could take both, which would lead to a full 45' wide circle where you can full attack.

Making it easier to full attack when you are a TWF style user is fine. Not something I would take instead of lunge, but something I might pick much later on as a compliment to it.


Imbicatus wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:

Don't forget about the existence of Spear Dancing Reach...

Quote:

You can strike from afar with double weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 17, Spear Dancing Spiral, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style and making a full attack using the chosen weapon as a double weapon, you can grant the reach special weapon feature to one or both of the weapon's ends until the end of your turn as a swift action.

Now it's a reach weapon...A feat intensive and expensive reach weapon that can only be used in full attacks and uses up your swift action, but a reach weapon.

A reach weapon that cannot be used for reach AoOs. Really, Spear Dancing Reach is just costing a swift action for lunge without an AC penalty. You'd be better off just taking Lunge.

not really better then lunge, if you medium yeah lunge is more then likely better but if you are large or bigger. Reach double your natural reach, lunge just adds 5ft. and as lemeres said you can always use both in increase it further. the while this is little too feat intensive and subpar option seem do able by raw.

as far if the other side benefiting from enchanted it. I don't think it counts, it says it values as light mace, so I would treat it as such.

This FAQ has a similar thing going on, As the the back side is being called as different kind of weapon. This case improvised weapon instead of a light mace.

"Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?

You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).

I think the Dragoon Archtype is the exception to this as it calls out and enchantment bonus when using the back side of a the weapon valued as club.

This is one of those things I expect table variance on.


Phalanx Soldier archetype lets you use spears one handed when using a shield.

A bracer counts as a shield.

You can still use a weapon in the hand that has the bracer on that arm, at a -1 to hit.

Maybe this will help you on your way...

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MisterSlanky wrote:

Don't forget about the existence of Spear Dancing Reach...

Quote:

You can strike from afar with double weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 17, Spear Dancing Spiral, Spear Dancing Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Spear Dancing Style and making a full attack using the chosen weapon as a double weapon, you can grant the reach special weapon feature to one or both of the weapon's ends until the end of your turn as a swift action.

Now it's a reach weapon...A feat intensive and expensive reach weapon that can only be used in full attacks and uses up your swift action, but a reach weapon.

lemeres wrote:
The only thing that I am left wondering about is whether the weapon's enhancement bonus is applied to both ends (since you normally can't enhance the other end of a spear, since it isn't a double weapon). If that is the case, then this is already giving people a hell of a lot without having to give you reach based TWF (which, for the amount of feats needed to go for that silly path, you might as well grab whips and the feats needed to make those lethal)
This I think is the real question.

It don't work with quartestaff mastery as it say:L

"When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon.".

- * - * -

alexd1976 wrote:

Phalanx Soldier archetype lets you use spears one handed when using a shield.

A bracer counts as a shield.

You can still use a weapon in the hand that has the bracer on that arm, at a -1 to hit.

Maybe this will help you on your way...

Bracer?

Where you have found a bracer beside the magical bracers, in Pathfinder? And where it say that it work as a shield?

Maybe you mean a buckler.

And:

PRD wrote:


Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces armor training 1.

That open the usual can of worms about "wielding" something, but I doubt you can claim that you are wielding a buckler when you are wielding a weapon with that hand.


Sorry, I did mean buckler. You are allowed to use the buckler and still have a weapon, it's right there in the text about the buckler...

Scarab Sages

alexd1976 wrote:
Sorry, I did mean buckler. You are allowed to use the buckler and still have a weapon, it's right there in the text about the buckler...

Yes, but you lose the AC bonus from the buckler when you do. If you are not receiving the AC bonus from the buckler, you are not "wielding" it.


Imbicatus wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Sorry, I did mean buckler. You are allowed to use the buckler and still have a weapon, it's right there in the text about the buckler...
Yes, but you lose the AC bonus from the buckler when you do. If you are not receiving the AC bonus from the buckler, you are not "wielding" it.

If that's the case, then my suggestion was a waste of time.

*shrugs*

Apologies.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
My Self wrote:

So Spear Dancing Spiral allows for you to use quarterstaff feats for the spear. Quarterstaff Master allows you to use a quarterstaff one-handed. That means that with the appropriate feats, you can use a spear in one hand, no? Does that mean that you can dual-wield two-handed spears?

Does that mean you can have a longspear in one hand and a regular spear in the other, and become a crazy reach monster?

I think I just realized the true benefit to Spear Dancing Spiral's quarterstaff line: Perfect Strike. You can use Perfect Strike with a high-crit polearm like the nodachi to have a almost guaranteed crit.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Dual-wielding two-handed spears All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions