So this is two questions here.
But I'm gonna start with a link to grinding and a quote of it to ensure clarity here and ease of access.
A shield or suit of armor with this special ability is covered with jagged burrs and razor-sharp serrations that saw and grind whenever the wearer is grappled or entangled. Any creature succeeding at a grapple combat maneuver check against the wearer takes damage equal to the armor or shield's enhancement bonus (with each successful check) as the barbs and blades bite into it. This special ability counts as armor spikes for the purpose of making attacks on the wearer's turn.
First, can the armor spikes given from grinding be enchanted as a separate weapon? Or is it just that you technically have armor spikes if you decide to use then as a weapon?
I'm leaning toward the second interpretation as it says "...for the purpose of making attacks on the wearer's turn." That implies to me that they aren't true armor spikes.
Second, and the big one here, is grinding a valid enchantment for a buckler? It specifically says shield and never says anything about not working on a buckler in the description. And typically when shield is used it means all varieties, buckler to tower and all the in-between. At least that's what I've seen, I could be wrong here and that'd be what I'm misunderstanding.
If it is a valid enchantment, which it sounds like it is, it raises another question.
"This special ability counts as armor spikes for the purpose of making attacks on the wearer's turn."
I'm assuming these "armor spikes" count as "shield spikes" when put on a shield, otherwise they're pointless. And if they didn't count as shield spikes then I feel like a note would've been made there specifying that they don't serve as shield spikes.
Well if they're shield spikes then that's a bit of a pickle, not a game breaker, but a pickle nonetheless. Since a buckler is not a valid recipient of shield spikes, can this effectively give a buckler shield spikes then? Cause that's how it reads. If it does, then I'm assuming they'd only deal a d4 or something small.
But then it'd raise the question above, can the shield spikes be enchanted as well, or are they not true spikes in that they cannot be enchanted. They'd just give a shield spike attack?
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Welp, it's thoroughly murky. Neat idea, but should have had a bit more polish before getting published.
Here's my interpretation:
• Leaning towards "they're not true armor spikes" and therefore can't be separately enchanted. Generally, if a condition or ability says it works "for the purposes of X", it doesn't work for any other purposes. Otherwise, why mention X?
• "Shields" without any specification does indeed include bucklers. Bucklers are listed on "Shield" tables in equipment listings, class descriptions refer to being proficient in "shields" and include bucklers, and so forth. I see no reason to treat this any differently.
• Spikes: This is one of the big red flags of sloppy writing and/or editing. Did the author deliberately want to give spikes to armor but not shields? Does the author not realize that armor spikes and shield spikes are two separate things and thinks that the term "armor spikes" covers both armor and shields (perhaps thinking shields are a subcategory of armor)? Did the author originally write this ability as armor-only in their turnover, and the developer decided it should work on shields too but failed to adjust the text to match? Did the author's turnover not even include the spikes part, and the developer tacked it on hastily as a last-minute revision (giving us a repeat of the first two questions, but aimed at the developer)? Ugh. So many possibilities, and we're left to guess. My personal leaning is to go with it serving as shield spikes when used on a shield, but YMMV.
• So that leaves us with the "spikes on a buckler" issue. Fortunately, it's actually not an issue, because the rules for shield spikes say that using them involves making a shield bash attack, and bucklers say they can't be used for shield bash attacks. So even if you technically achieve the anomaly of having shield spikes on your buckler, you still can't actually attack with them.
Hope that helps. Also hope this isn't for PFS. Yikes.
Wow!! Reading that makes me want to click the FAQ button to get some clarity on grinding haha.
But I hadnt read that well into shield spikes and the wording so I did miss the parts you mentioned until now. When I saw they didn't go on a buckler I pretty much ignored them til I noticed this anomaly of sorts here.
It is a bit of a shame that they cannot be attacked with though. Despite the munchkinness, I figured I'd found a way to attack with a buckler without taking the relevant fighter archetype. (I don't want to actually attack with it in two weapon fighting or anything, just as a back up if I get disarmed) its looking like a spiked gauntlet is my best backup weapon though.
Its not PFS though. Just a home game. But the idea of getting shield spikes on a tower shield or buckler in PFS are funny
Thanks for the clarification though!
its looking like a spiked gauntlet is my best backup weapon though.I recommend a cestus instead.
A cestus imposes a penalty ("When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks)"); a spiked gauntlet does not. The difference between being 19-20/x2 vs. 20/x2 is really minor and being a monk weapon (allowing a cestus to be used with Flurry of Blows) is hardly worth it (since a monk's unarmed damage is higher, anyway).
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The penalty is pretty negligible for most characters, unless your GM is "that guy" and thinks "precision-based tasks such as opening locks" was meant to communicate "pretty much anything involving your hand, including attacks and climbing and swimming and anything else you can think of".
Also, there's the fact that you can choose between piercing and bludgeoning damage.
Here's the way I'd see it:
They're not true armor spikes, they're more of a (magical) attachment to the shield (or armor). This makes sense, since you can put it on Armor, but also a Shield, which normally can't have Armor Spikes at all. The inverse is also true (can't put Shield Spikes on Armor either), so it makes more sense to rule this way than the other way.
They can't be enhanced, because they aren't a true weapon (only count as one; think weapon-like spells and such), plus their damage is based on something completely different (your shield's/armor's enhancement bonus), so even if you tried to enhance them, they wouldn't stack with your shield's/armor's enhancement bonus. Unfortunately, it's not specified if it's an Enhancement Bonus to damage or not (allowing the ability to bypass certain DR); for simplicity purposes, let's say it isn't.
As for the Armor Spikes as Attacks issue, I'm not sure how that would work. I'd reckon that you can attack with the shield or armor as though it were Armor Spikes (dealing damage equal to your shield's/armor's Enhancement Bonus, and only that damage), and that if you went to TWF, you'd treat the attack as a Light Weapon (meaning only -2 penalties). This also means, however, that you cannot use a Two-Handed Weapon with this option for TWF, per the FAQ.
That being said, this property is just plain bad anyway. At best, you're looking at a flat 5 damage with an attack, which is subject to DR, and that's just plain silly by the time you actually reach 5 damage with the property.
Here's the way I'd see it:
They're not true armor spikes, they're more of a (magical) attachment to the shield (or armor). This makes sense, since you can put it on Armor, but also a Shield, which normally can't have Armor Spikes at all. The inverse is also true (can't put Shield Spikes on Armor either), so it makes more sense to rule this way than the other way.
They can't be enhanced, because they aren't a true weapon (only count as one; think weapon-like spells and such), plus their damage is based on something completely different (your shield's/armor's enhancement bonus), so even if you tried to enhance them, they wouldn't stack with your shield's/armor's enhancement bonus. Unfortunately, it's not specified if it's an Enhancement Bonus to damage or not (allowing the ability to bypass certain DR); for simplicity purposes, let's say it isn't.
As for the Armor Spikes as Attacks issue, I'm not sure how that would work. I'd reckon that you can attack with the shield or armor as though it were Armor Spikes (dealing damage equal to your shield's/armor's Enhancement Bonus, and only that damage), and that if you went to TWF, you'd treat the attack as a Light Weapon (meaning only -2 penalties). This also means, however, that you cannot use a Two-Handed Weapon with this option for TWF, per the FAQ.
That being said, this property is just plain bad anyway. At best, you're looking at a flat 5 damage with an attack, which is subject to DR, and that's just plain silly by the time you actually reach 5 damage with the property.
Now for a new twist, what happens when you put the grinding ability on a pistol buckler and use the Gunslinger(Pistolero)'s pistol whip ability?
Now for a new twist, what happens when you put the grinding ability on a pistol buckler and use the Gunslinger(Pistolero)'s pistol whip ability?
That sounds like it'd be interesting haha.
Another relevant question, what happens with the spell Gorum's (Spiked) Armor? It gives shield spikes for the duration of the spell, so when placed on a buckler, you again would have shield spikes like with grinding.
Would that allow for a buckler shield spike attack?
(At this point I'm just curious if there's a way to get a buckler attack aside from the specific class abilities for it and aside from GM permission or anything)
It acts as appropriate. So Shield Spikes apply to Shields, and Armor Spikes apply to Armor. Although it might be eligible for all Shields, you can't Shield Bash with a Buckler unless you have the requisite class features which allow you to bash with it, meaning it does nothing when placed on a Buckler normally.
It wouldn't work with the Grinding property because as-is, it only applies its Enhancement Bonus to damage, which is not a damage dice roll (if it is, it'd be 0D0).
@ Ridiculon: Can you link the Pistol Buckler and Pistol Whip subjects for me? I'm not 100% familiar with them.
Ah, its a gunslinger deed, you dont have to have the archetype:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger#TOC-Deeds
Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/buckl er-gun
Buckler Gun:
The front of this buckler is fitted with a small, double-barreled gun that can be shot while wearing the buckler. Unlike with a double-barreled pistol, you can only shoot one barrel at a time.
You must remove the buckler to reload the gun. Each barrel of a buckler gun uses a bullet and 1 dose of black powder or single alchemical cartridge as ammunition. Because of its awkward construction, a buckler gun is always considered an off-handed weapon.
so it might not work with the deed from the description, but i dont know if a regular description counts as a specific rule for items
Ah, its a gunslinger deed, you dont have to have the archetype:
Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
The front of this buckler is fitted with a small, double-barreled gun that can be shot while wearing the buckler. Unlike with a double-barreled pistol, you can only shoot one barrel at a time.
You must remove the buckler to reload the gun. Each barrel of a buckler gun uses a bullet and 1 dose of black powder or single alchemical cartridge as ammunition. Because of its awkward construction, a buckler gun is always considered an off-handed weapon.
so it might not work with the deed from the description, but i dont know if a regular description counts as a specific rule for items
LINKS ADDED FOR CONVENIENCE.
It does if we follow that a Klar is similar to a Light Spiked Shield with a blade on it (signified by the 1D6 damage entry). If not, then I wouldn't know what kind of item it is, how it functions, etc. So it might as well not even be mentioned if that is the case.
So following the former interpretation, we know that a Buckler Gun is, in fact, a buckler. But again, the Grinding effect, per RAW, only deals 1-5 damage, based on the Shield's Enhancement Bonus. It does not deal Armor Spike damage, nor does it deal Shield damage. It also only triggers when an enemy performs a successful Grapple check on you while using the item, meaning that it triggers the extra damage on that instance, and that instance only.
So 1st round, if you get grappled, you deal 1-5 Damage, based on Buckler Enhancement. You could then break free, or you could pistol-whip him for 1D6+Strength+(Pistol's Enhancement Bonus). But if you decided to take control of the grapple, your successful check would not trigger the 1-5 Damage.
2nd round, if he decides to maintain it, he takes the same 1-5 Damage, and it repeats until either one of you dies, or the grapple is broken.
Needless to say, it sucks. If there's anything I've learned about +1 properties, is that 75% of them are useless, and anything that is a +2 property or higher, 9 times out of 10, is also useless.